Is Arminianism heresy?

[DHK]

You are ill-informed. You had said that Arminians believe they can lose their salvation and that they think they can achieve sinless perfection. I told you that most Arminians do not believe those things.

Wesleyans are but a subset of the larger movement. Many Baptists who are not Calvinistic lie in the realm of the Arminian and Semi-Pelagian turf. These Baptists outnumber Wesleyans by a considerable margin.

Both Classical and Wesleyan Arminians believe one can lose their salvation.
Almost all of them do. It is one of their major beliefs. If you deny it is simply to save face.

The reason you deny it is simply because you have changed the definition of Arminianism. To you it is a derogatory term for a non-Cal, but that is not how theological encyclopedias define it. You are wrong and you know it.

 

[robustheologian]

You are ill-informed. You had said that Arminians believe they can lose their salvation and that they think they can achieve sinless perfection. I told you that most Arminians do not believe those things.

Yeah...I thought that too when I read DHK's post. One of the five points of Remonstrance (Arminianism) is that salvation is "losable".

And most self-professed Arminians will admit they don't hold to Perfectionism.

 

[Rippon]

Both Classical and Wesleyan Arminians believe one can lose their salvation.
Almost all of them do. It is one of their major beliefs. If you deny it is simply to save face.

Most Arminians do not believe they can lose their salvation. They believe in OSAS. That's not quite the perseverance and preservation of the saints, but it comes within proximity.

At least this time you aren't insisting that Arminians believe in sinless perfectionism. You dropped that one like a hot potato.

The reason you deny it is simply because you have changed the definition of Arminianism.

I obviously do not have your definition of it --but I have not altered the basic meaning at all.

To you it is a derogatory term for a non-Cal, but that is not how theological encyclopedias define it. You are wrong and you know it.

I would suggest that you take remedial reading. I had quoted Pipedude in a positive way. I quoted Roger Olson who is a self-proclaimed Arminian.

I had a whole thread in the past devoted to my admiration for some famous Arminians.

It's time for you to take ESL, or admit you are lying about me (sigh) AGAIN.

 

[DHK]

Most Arminians do not believe they can lose their salvation. They believe in OSAS. That's not quite the perseverance and preservation of the saints, but it comes within proximity.

I have given evidence you have given your opinion. You are wrong. You can remain in your error; that doesn't matter to me.

At least this time you aren't insisting that Arminians believe in sinless perfectionism. You dropped that one like a hot potato.

As I stated: There is classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism. There are many that still follow the latter and believe in entire sanctification. If you are still unaware of that then study it out. It is widely known and believed. As I documented for you it was a major point of dissension between Wesley and Whitefield.

I obviously do not have your definition of it --but I have not altered the basic meaning at all.

I would suggest that you take remedial reading. I had quoted Pipedude in a positive way. I quoted Roger Olson who is a self-proclaimed Arminian.

I had a whole thread in the past devoted to my admiration for some famous Arminians.

It's time for you to take ESL, or admit you are lying about me (sigh) AGAIN.

You need to study this subject and find out what they believe. It is obvious you don't know.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Luke, who posted here so often as Calvinism's representative, believed that God is the author of sin. Any thinking Calvinist will admit that their belief system logically leads to that conclusion. After all, isn't that what you keep quoting--God "appointed (created or fitted) vessels of wrath fitted for destruction." He created people for evil means according to your own theology.

Brother DHK,

As a primitive Baptist, I do disagree with Calvinism on the issue of justification (on most other points I am in agreement), however to be fair, being a former Calvinist, most mainstream Calvinists do not believe/teach that God is the author of sin. See quotes below for support of my assertion-

“ This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.” (RC Sproul, Double Predestination)

"...God is not the author of evil.”( John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)

"CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein" (1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)

Everything that happens is by God's will, however there is a permissive will and a non-permissive will. God's permissive will simply allows something to happen (this would be the case with sin), his non-permissive will directly causes something to happen by working in the creature (e.g. regeneration, good works as the fruit of the Spirit, etc.).

God's divine purposes cause even the most evil acts of men such as the crucifixion of Christ to work out for greater good. The crucifixion of Christ is the most act of men the world has ever seen, but God made the crucifixion into his redemptive plan for sin for his people, and the greatest act of love of all time.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

As a primitive Baptist, I do disagree with Calvinism on the issue of justification (on most other points I am in agreement), however to be fair, being a former Calvinist, most mainstream Calvinists do not believe/teach that God is the author of sin. See quotes below for support of my assertion-

“ This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.” (RC Sproul, Double Predestination)

"...God is not the author of evil.”( John Calvin, Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, p.169, emphasis mine)

"CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Paragraph 1. God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein" (1689 Baptist Confession of Faith)

Everything that happens is by God's will, however there is a permissive will and a non-permissive will. God's permissive will simply allows something to happen (this would be the case with sin), his non-permissive will directly causes something to happen by working in the creature (e.g. regeneration, good works as the fruit of the Spirit, etc.).

God's divine purposes cause even the most evil acts of men such as the crucifixion of Christ to work out for greater good. The crucifixion of Christ is the most act of men the world has ever seen, but God made the crucifixion into his redemptive plan for sin for his people, and the greatest act of love of all time.

I realize what you are saying.
However, ask SBM if God is the author of the sin. He will readily admit that He is. The difference between SBM and some of the others is that he takes the tenets of Calvinism to their logical conclusion while others simply do not want to admit it.
I also mentioned another poster, Luke, who agrees with the same position.

My post which you quoted was:
Luke, who posted here so often as Calvinism's representative, believed that God is the author of sin. Any thinking Calvinist will admit that their belief system logically leads to that conclusion. After all, isn't that what you keep quoting--God "appointed (created or fitted) vessels of wrath fitted for destruction." He created people for evil means according to your own theology.

Notice I didn't come right out and say that is what they all believed. It they take their beliefs to their logical conclusion, then they will honestly admit that they must believe that God is the author of evil, just like Luke and SBM do.
But, because it is not "politically correct" for them to so, they shy away from such a position.

After all, in their interpretation, God, being the potter, created out of love: "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," vessels that could do nothing but evil even if they tried. They were born evil, can only do evil, and are destined to an evil end--according to their interpretation.
This makes God the author of evil. One cannot get around this conclusion when such an interpretation is given.

 

[steaver]

I realize what you are saying.
However, ask SBM if God is the author of the sin. He will readily admit that He is. The difference between SBM and some of the others is that he takes the tenets of Calvinism to their logical conclusion while others simply do not want to admit it.
I also mentioned another poster, Luke, who agrees with the same position.

My post which you quoted was:
Luke, who posted here so often as Calvinism's representative, believed that God is the author of sin. Any thinking Calvinist will admit that their belief system logically leads to that conclusion. After all, isn't that what you keep quoting--God "appointed (created or fitted) vessels of wrath fitted for destruction." He created people for evil means according to your own theology.

Notice I didn't come right out and say that is what they all believed. It they take their beliefs to their logical conclusion, then they will honestly admit that they must believe that God is the author of evil, just like Luke and SBM do.
But, because it is not "politically correct" for them to so, they shy away from such a position.

After all, in their interpretation, God, being the potter, created out of love: "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," vessels that could do nothing but evil even if they tried. They were born evil, can only do evil, and are destined to an evil end--according to their interpretation.
This makes God the author of evil. One cannot get around this conclusion when such an interpretation is given.

This is spot on DHK :thumbs: And I believe it needs it's own thread and Calvinist need to address this contradiction found in their own theology. I will set it up....

 

[Rippon]

isn't that what you keep quoting--God "appointed (created or fitted) vessels of wrath fitted for destruction." He created people for evil means according to your own theology.

It [sic] they take their beliefs to their logical conclusion, then they will honestly admit that they must believe that God is the author of evil, just like Luke and SBM do.
But, because it is not "politically correct" for them to so, they shy away from such a position.

After all, in their interpretation, God, being the potter, created out of love: "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction," vessels that could do nothing but evil even if they tried. They were born evil, can only do evil, and are destined to an evil end--according to their interpretation.
This makes God the author of evil. One cannot get around this conclusion when such an interpretation is given.

Typical DHK drivel.

You have given a couple of "taking Calvinism to its logical conclusion" before. You've said since they believe in the five points that means that, logically, taken to its logical conclusion Calvinists don't evangelize or see the reason to do so.

And of course that is another one of DHK's grand lies.

DHK wishes that Romans 9 in general, but specifically, verses 21 and 22 are so inconvenient for him. It nowhere says God is the Author of sin or evil. Calvinists give no such meaning to those verses. It's not because it would be politically incorrect to do so --it is just not there.

Yesterday DHK said :"Those who reject Christ are damned. Your theology makes God the author of evil. That is the logical consequence of reprobation."

Get this: People in their natural unspiritual state are without the Spirit of God. As much as that may rankle you, that is true. People do what they want to do. They willingly sin. No one is forcing them to do so. Calvinism does not teach that God is infusing them with sin.

So I tell you this : Stop attributing complete lies to Calvinism. It doesn't help your cause, whatever that may be. Lies never do.

 

[DHK]

Get this: People in their natural unspiritual state are without the Spirit of God. As much as that may rankle you, that is true. People do what they want to do. They willingly sin. No one is forcing them to do so. Calvinism does not teach that God is infusing them with sin.

So I tell you this : Stop attributing complete lies to Calvinism. It doesn't help your cause, whatever that may be. Lies never do.

Here is the difference.
Rippon has stated his position above. To make it even more clear he believes that these same people are not only born sinners without a choice to do nothing but sin, but are predestined before the foundation of the earth to go to Hell and be there for all eternity. God so decreed it. God will never give these individuals a chance to have eternal life because they, from before the foundation of the earth, have been predestined for the Lake of Fire. That is his position. And that is what makes God the author of evil.

We believe that God gives every person the chance to believe on Christ.
The Bible teaches that all men are "without excuse." (Rom.1:20).
They will be in Hell because they, of their own will, rejected Christ.

The Jews rejected Christ when Christ came to them.
John 1:11 "He came to his own, and his own received him not."

But the scripture does not stop there. It continues in verse 12:

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--All have the chance to believe on him, just as the Jews did.

 

[Rippon]

Give Them A Chance? Not A Chance.

You believe that God gives every person a chance for salvation. "A chance to have eternal life." "A chance to believe on Christ."

Give me scriptural citations for this fictional "chance" you speak of.

 

[Rippon]

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 : children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 9:16 : It does not, therefore, depend on human decision or effort, but on God's mercy.

James 1:18a : He chose to give us birth through the word of truth

But, DHK differs with biblical authority. He says : "Salvation is always based on the free will of man."

 

[DHK]

You believe that God gives every person a chance for salvation. "A chance to have eternal life." "A chance to believe on Christ."

Give me scriptural citations for this fictional "chance" you speak of.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

 

[BobRyan]

You are ill-informed. You had said that Arminians believe they can lose their salvation and that they think they can achieve sinless perfection. I told you that most Arminians do not believe those things.

Wesleyans are but a subset of the larger movement. Many Baptists who are not Calvinistic lie in the realm of the Arminian and Semi-Pelagian turf. These Baptists outnumber Wesleyans by a considerable margin.

And no Arminian has the show-stopping dead-end that Calvinism has when confronted with these texts...

====================================================

The irrefutable problem for Calvinism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]



In addition to the irrefutable problem for Calvinism as stated previously we have this...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan

[FONT=&quot] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

[/FONT] Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
[FONT=&quot]God who “who is willing for all mankind to be saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth[/FONT]”.[FONT=&quot] 1Tim 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“I will draw ALL mankind unto Me” John 12:32[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The Holy Spirit “Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment” John 16:8[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]God “sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD” 1John 4:14

There is no such "World of only believers" or any such thing in the Bible when it comes to "God so Loved the World".

John 3 "God so Love the WORLD" -- "yes really"! not simply over-marketing.
John 1 9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
John 6 51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
1John 2:2 "He is the Atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".
1 Tim 4:10 "10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Peter in Acts 10
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]“Behold I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in” Rev 3[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

John 1:13 : children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 9:16 : It does not, therefore, depend on human decision or effort, but on God's mercy.

James 1:18a : He chose to give us birth through the word of truth

But, DHK differs with biblical authority. He says : "Salvation is always based on the free will of man."

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

A question for the fatalist determinists: Did Satan rebel against God by choice, or did God predestine him to rebel? If the latter, you make God the author and originator of evil.

This right here is why Calvinism is the false, abhorrent, evil belief system that it is.

God permitted BOTH satan and Adam to chose to disobeying and sin against Him, but he also had predestined and decreed what the end result of them choosing to do what they did would bring about, in that the Cross of Jesus was always there to be the one means to redeem sinners, and to bring glory to God...

God was at work to glorify himself and to do right even while they did evil and wrong!

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Yes, that will be the end result that always happens to a sinner that God chose to be saved by the death of Jesus, as they would indeed be provided to means to do what that passage stated!

You MUST realise that due to the Fall of Adam, that none of us have the means within ourselves to do that, but only can do that when enabled to by the prsence and enabling of the Holy Spirit!

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Yes, that will be the end result that always happens to a sinner that God chose to be saved by the death of Jesus, as they would indeed be provided to means to do what that passage stated!

You MUST realise that due to the Fall of Adam, that none of us have the means within ourselves to do that, but only can do that when enabled to by the prsence and enabling of the Holy Spirit!

In Calvinism you do not choose, or believe "resulting in salvation".

In Calvinism you are born-again saved -- first -- then you choose


Unless of course you have a Bible text about a born-again person who has not chosen Christ and so .. still is lost. There is no such thing in the Bible as born-again but lost, but not forgiven.

by contrast in the Bible - you are drawn to God - but not yet saved "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32 -- then you choose to believe - and you are saved as the result Romans 10.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

In Calvinism you do not choose, or believe "resulting in salvation".

In Calvinism you are born-again saved -- first -- then you choose


Unless of course you have a Bible text about a born-again person who has not chosen Christ and so .. still is lost. There is no such thing in the Bible as born-again but lost, but not forgiven.

by contrast in the Bible - you are drawn to God - but not yet saved "I will DRAW ALL MANKIND unto Me" John 12:32 -- then you choose to believe - and you are saved as the result Romans 10.

in Christ,

Bob

No, for regeneration is NOT the new birth, its God enabling His elect to be able to receive jesus thru faith and then get "saved!"

 

[DHK]

John 1:13 : children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 9:16 : It does not, therefore, depend on human decision or effort, but on God's mercy.

James 1:18a : He chose to give us birth through the word of truth

But, DHK differs with biblical authority. He says : "Salvation is always based on the free will of man."

The Bible says that every man will so give account of himself before God.

Rippon believes that God will take the place of man and will give account of the unsaved man, because he predetermined that man should go to hell. Therefore God himself must stand before Himself in the Great White Throne Judgment--a ridiculous position. This is the logical conclusion of a man that has no free will.

Every man shall give account of himself.
They will stand before God and give account of why they rejected Christ. That is the reason they are there. They rejected Christ. Their names are not written in the book of Life.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Bible says that every man will so give account of himself before God.

Rippon believes that God will take the place of man and will give account of the unsaved man, because he predetermined that man should go to hell. Therefore God himself must stand before Himself in the Great White Throne Judgment--a ridiculous position. This is the logical conclusion of a man that has no free will.

Every man shall give account of himself.
They will stand before God and give account of why they rejected Christ. That is the reason they are there. They rejected Christ. Their names are not written in the book of Life.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

God has predetermined the destiny of all who will and have rejected jesus, as none in hell will be there due to God forcing them to go there, as they all will spit on the Cross by an act of their "free will"