I wanted to be sure I posted something equal to your comprehension and maturity level.
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Is Arminianism heresy?
- Thread starter Robert William
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I wanted to be sure I posted something equal to your comprehension and maturity level.
What DHK is saying is this: The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God must be the author of evil. If God predetermines everything and there is no freedom of the will or free choice, then the bottom line and end result is that God is the author of evil. Calvinists need to be honest and consistent and admit this, or else abandon this false system.
Determinism plus no choice = god the author of evil. This is not the Christian God.
Determinism plus no choice = god the author of evil. This is not the Christian God.
Calvinism does NOT teach/believe in that though!
We would hold that God still allows for us to have "free will", but its that due to the Fall of Adam, we are still free to choose, but that we are limited and in bondage to our sin natures, so that none of us can decide to "come to Jesus" by our own act of free will...
And that God does indeed bring all things to pass based upon his sovereign will getting done, but he does not direct cause all things to do happen, as he did not "force" Lucifer and adam to sin and fall!
PreachTony
Active Member
So we are free to choose...we're just not free to choose Him? If you tell me I have freedom of choice, but that I cannot choose a certain thing, then I never had free choice to being with. Worse yet, if you tell me that I have free choice, but you then take away one of my options, then my limitation in choice does not come from me, but rather from the one presenting the options in the first place.
But if we have a truly free will to choose, then we find ourselves in a situation where ALL can come to repentance, unlike the current Calvinist model whereby only ALL (the Elect) can come to repentance.
Calvinism does not teach that man doesn't have authority, just that God's authority is greater. Calvinism does not teach that man do not have ability, just that God's ability is greater. Calvinism does not teach that man do not have a will, but that God's will is certainly greater.
Think that required reading for some here should be Martin Luther work on the Bondage of the human Will!
Your arguermet is with not calvin/Luther here on this issue, but jesus and the Apostles, as they all held to the "Bondage of the Will", as relating to sinners!
Calvinism is a Heresy.
I doubt about the salvation of Jean Calvin as well.
He was baptized by Infant Baptism at RCC and we find nowhere his testimony about Being Born Again. He was never baptized after salvation.
He quoted Augustine in his book Institutes of Christian Religion more than 400 times.
Calvin claimed
1) Clergy system
2) No salvation outside the church
3) Baptismal Regeneration
4) Infant Baptism
5) Heresy of Predestination.
6) Accused Servetus and claimed he should be beheaded. Intended murder.
7) Condemned Nestorians and other true believers
8) Coercion is OK
In general he taught the doctrines mostly similar to RCC' teaching except the papacy.
Calvinists persecuted Arminians in the same manner as RCC did to the Albigenses and Waldensians, Bogomils, and to the Anabaptists.
Arminians were the victims of such persecutions by Calvinists.
Calvinists are desperate to deny the contradiction that their God is the source of all the evils in the world after they claim that God destined every bit of movements of all the wicked men by His absolute sovereignty.
In this they are adding one more sin of Lying.
Because they claimed that God is almighty and sovereign and He predestined everything of all human races.
When they escape from the Blasphemy against God, they try to resemble Arminians.
God will judge this heresy and the heresy holders.
Eliyahu
I doubt about the salvation of Jean Calvin as well.
He was baptized by Infant Baptism at RCC and we find nowhere his testimony about Being Born Again. He was never baptized after salvation.
He quoted Augustine in his book Institutes of Christian Religion more than 400 times.
Calvin claimed
1) Clergy system
2) No salvation outside the church
3) Baptismal Regeneration
4) Infant Baptism
5) Heresy of Predestination.
6) Accused Servetus and claimed he should be beheaded. Intended murder.
7) Condemned Nestorians and other true believers
8) Coercion is OK
In general he taught the doctrines mostly similar to RCC' teaching except the papacy.
Calvinists persecuted Arminians in the same manner as RCC did to the Albigenses and Waldensians, Bogomils, and to the Anabaptists.
Arminians were the victims of such persecutions by Calvinists.
Calvinists are desperate to deny the contradiction that their God is the source of all the evils in the world after they claim that God destined every bit of movements of all the wicked men by His absolute sovereignty.
In this they are adding one more sin of Lying.
Because they claimed that God is almighty and sovereign and He predestined everything of all human races.
When they escape from the Blasphemy against God, they try to resemble Arminians.
God will judge this heresy and the heresy holders.
Eliyahu
Well, you stand on dangerous ground.
In the past you have said you could not make that judgment call.
That is a big fat lie that you got straight from Dave Hunt.
So? About one third of the time he disagreed with the Bishop of Hippo.
Christ did not lay down His life for anyone but His elect. And those are also called The Church of God and many other terms in Scripture.
So you deny that the doctrine of predestination is taught in the Bible?
He pleaded for the more humane way of execution. But his request was denied.
Calvin was not guilty of murder, or intended murder. You should not lie.
Please furnish documentation.
Please flesh that out --unless you think I'm coercing you.
You're just talking off the top of your head. You just openly display your abject ignorance of what Calvin taught.
Your heroes of J.N. Darby and George Muller were Calvinists. Do you wish to regard them as heretics?
You have been consistent in the last decade here on the BB. You have not accepted correction. You do not study and you deal in falsehood regularly.
Your sources such as Dan Corner, David Cloud, Dave Hunt and Peter Ruckman are poisoned wells. When you draw up the bucket you will drinking impure water.
I am too busy to read much about such people as Calvin or Knox. (Eliyahu, 12/1/2005)
Yes, I must admit my information is just rough and tough. Indeed, my information lacks the accuracy definitely, because I don't want to spend much time for such people after I checked them at a glance. (Eliyahu, 12/1/2005)
I have no intention to judge Calvin severely. (Eliyahu, 2/25/2007)
Jarthur001 addressing Eliyahu on 3/1/07 :
You...waste your time believing bogus claims not found in any history book...Have you ever thought about looking for the truth? Have you even thought it was a good idea to take the time to READ a history book? Do you not think this may help you find the truth?
Yes, I must admit my information is just rough and tough. Indeed, my information lacks the accuracy definitely, because I don't want to spend much time for such people after I checked them at a glance. (Eliyahu, 12/1/2005)
I have no intention to judge Calvin severely. (Eliyahu, 2/25/2007)
Jarthur001 addressing Eliyahu on 3/1/07 :
You...waste your time believing bogus claims not found in any history book...Have you ever thought about looking for the truth? Have you even thought it was a good idea to take the time to READ a history book? Do you not think this may help you find the truth?
I would agree, evangelical efforts are, or should be, a primary concern for us, however, all of us are in need of instruction before being brought to a place where we can be useful in that area. Many do not witness primarily because they simply don't know enough to present the Gospel of Christ to another individual. Debate among ourselves helps us to not only test the doctrine of others...but to test our own.
I can't count how many times I have presented something just to have someone say "...but what about..."
Oops.
Also, I have learned that forum discussion helps us in specific areas of ministry such as debating atheists and those of other beliefs. I owe a debt of gratitude, believe it or not...to atheists. It is through discussion with them, and yes, debate, that I have learned to not only understand them better but I have learned that it is absolutely vital in understanding why someone believes the way they do.
Most people on the forums display something that sets them apart from the average believer: their zeal for the Word of God. Most will attend Church this week, and when they leave, their Bibles will sit somewhere and not be raised again until they once again go to church. Not so with many here, they know what they believe and are in the process of testing their own beliefs, their own doctrine, and even their own practice...whether they know it or not.
I do not stay on any one forum for very long (though I have revisited this one for years), but prefer to travel to different forums to discuss the Word of God. In those travels I have been able to talk with just about any type of believer you can imagine. So I would echo your sentiment but at the same time suggest that this is something that few do. There is someone on this forum called "Net Chaplain" and I believe he is the same one that can be found on many, many forums, and is one who takes Forum Missions very seriously.
So take it easy on Forum Discussion, it is a great opportunity for all interested in learning, witnessing, and preparing themselves to be useful for the cause of Christ.
God bless.
Damning evidence, some from the demon's own mouth:
During Servetus' trial, John Calvin wrote, "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty". Walter Nigg, The Heretics, (Alfred A Knopf, Inc.), p.328
"Calvin had him (Servetus) arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death." The Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary of the Church, p.366
When Servetus mentioned that he would come to Geneva, "Espeville" (Calvin) wrote a letter to Farel on 13 February 1546 noting that if Servetus were to come, he would not assure him safe conduct: "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive". Cottret 2000, pp. 216–217; Parker 2006, pp. 147–148; Levy, Leonard W. (1995), Blasphemy: Verbal offense Against the Sacred from Moses to Salman Rushdie, p. 65
"Some scholars claim that Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burnt, knowing that burning at the stake was the only legal recourse. Others argue that Calvin himself ordered Servetus to be burned with green wood so the suffering would be prolonged, and that Servetus was the one who requested a more merciful beheading. This plea was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burnt alive at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva."
During Servetus' trial, John Calvin wrote, "I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty". Walter Nigg, The Heretics, (Alfred A Knopf, Inc.), p.328
"Calvin had him (Servetus) arrested as a heretic. Convicted and burned to death." The Wycliffe Biographical Dictionary of the Church, p.366
When Servetus mentioned that he would come to Geneva, "Espeville" (Calvin) wrote a letter to Farel on 13 February 1546 noting that if Servetus were to come, he would not assure him safe conduct: "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive". Cottret 2000, pp. 216–217; Parker 2006, pp. 147–148; Levy, Leonard W. (1995), Blasphemy: Verbal offense Against the Sacred from Moses to Salman Rushdie, p. 65
"Some scholars claim that Calvin and other ministers asked that he be beheaded instead of burnt, knowing that burning at the stake was the only legal recourse. Others argue that Calvin himself ordered Servetus to be burned with green wood so the suffering would be prolonged, and that Servetus was the one who requested a more merciful beheading. This plea was refused and on 27 October, Servetus was burnt alive at the Plateau of Champel at the edge of Geneva."
More evidence about the demon Calvin:
http://learntheology.com/the-trial-and-burning-of-michael-servetus-by-john-calvin.html
http://learntheology.com/the-trial-and-burning-of-michael-servetus-by-john-calvin.html
More evidence from the demon's own mouth; he is condemned by his own words. All of this makes liars out of the deniers and defenders.
The strongest recorded statement from Calvin on the Servetus affair is a 1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre, in which he says intolerantly:
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
The strongest recorded statement from Calvin on the Servetus affair is a 1561 letter from Calvin to the Marquis Paet, high chamberlain to the King of Navarre, in which he says intolerantly:
"Honour, glory, and riches shall be the reward of your pains; but above all, do not fail to rid the country of those scoundrels, who stir up the people to revolt against us. Such monsters should be exterminated, as I have exterminated Michael Servetus the Spaniard."
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All of this is associative argumentum ad hominem. Even if this whole Servetus thing was true, that doesn't refute Calvinist theology—just like the Crusades, or the Salem Witch Trials don't refute Christianity.
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Another of way of putting it is "abusus non tollit usum". Even if Calvin was guilty of everything he is accused of, it does not impugn the Reformed view of predestination and election (i.e. Calvinism).
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