Is Arminianism heresy?

[Yeshua1]

Many national church meetings have declared Arminianism as heresy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synod_of_Dort

Why is it that today most Christians or so called Christians comfortable with Arminianism??

The Synod concluded with a rejection of the Arminian views, and set forth the Reformed doctrine on each point, namely: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement (arguing that Christ's atoning work was intended only for the elect and not for the rest of the world), irresistible (or irrevocable) grace, and the perseverance of the saints. These are sometimes referred to as the Five points of Calvinism. The Decision of the Synod of Dort on the Five Main Points of Doctrine in Dispute in the Netherlands, popularly known as the Canons of Dort, is the explanation of the judicial decision of the Synod.[12] In the original preface, the Decision is called:

The Synod condemned the religious doctrine of Arminianism as heresy. There followed the political condemnation of the statesman Johan van Oldenbarnevelt who had been the protector of the Remonstrants. For the crime of general perturbation in the state of the nation, both in Church and State (treason), he was beheaded on 13 May 1619, only four days after the final meeting of the Synod. As consequence of the Arminian defeat the jurist Hugo Grotius was given a life sentence in prison; but he escaped with the help of his wife. Both Van Oldenbarnevelt and Grotius had in fact been imprisoned since 29 August 1618.

Would NOT stae that those holding to the classic views as reharding this are heretics, nor that the theology of Arminianism itself is rank heresy, but instaed that it is not getting the truth of the full Gospel message as expounded by the Apostles abd Jesus, but getting just parts of it fully correct!

 

[Rebel]

At least we Calvinists are inside the Church of christ, but the SDA cannot make that claim!

I don't doubt that some Calvinists are inside Christ's church, just like some SDAs.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't doubt that some Calvinists are inside Christ's church, just like some SDAs.

the BIG difference between us though would be that those saved in the SDA are despite their church doctrines, as it holds to a false/another gospel!

 

[BobRyan]

ahh the "all name calling" failed solution -- over and over again on this board.

No wonder some groups grow while others do not.

I myself like "this post" better.

============================================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Don't miss it.

[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about. If the result is wrong then Calvinism argues He did wrong - sabotaging His own plans or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

At least we Calvinists are inside the Church of christ, but the SDA cannot make that claim!

Is that non-Bible comment supposed to be taken seriously??

really?

There seems to be the notion that the reason everyone does not engage in that sort of name-calling emotional vitriol is because "they cannot do it".

But I can assure you that is not why others do not engage in it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Protestant]

Is that non-Bible comment supposed to be taken seriously??

really?

There seems to be the notion that the reason everyone does not engage in that sort of name-calling emotional vitriol is because "they cannot do it".

But I can assure you that is not why others do not engage in it.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob:

I asked you a serious question in another thread of yours which you did not answer. Normally you do not run and hide when asked a direct question.

So I ask again:

In your view (which I assume is the view of official SDA doctrine) does God love those who rejected Christ and are currently residing in Hell awaiting judgment at the Great White Throne?

I eagerly await your response.

 

[Rebel]

the BIG difference between us though would be that those saved in the SDA are despite their church doctrines, as it holds to a false/another gospel!

And I believe Calvinism is a false gospel, invented by a man in the 16th century. It is nowhere to be found in the early church.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeshua1
At least we Calvinists are inside the Church of christ, but the SDA cannot make that claim!

Is that non-Bible comment supposed to be taken seriously??

really?

There seems to be the notion that the reason everyone does not engage in that sort of name-calling emotional vitriol is because "they cannot do it".

But I can assure you that is not why others do not engage in it.

Bob:

I asked you a serious question in another thread of yours which you did not answer.

What thread is that??

(BTW - serious questions welcomed)

agreed. But I am not all-knowing - I need to see the question first.

Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

Pretty much the standard Arminian answer -- not just the SDA answer.

and are currently residing in Hell

No one is residing in Hell at this time.

But when the Rev 20 lake of Fire event is initiated by God - associated with the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 - then -- even then God loves the lost as in Matt 23 "O Jerusalem Jerusalem ... how I WANTED to save your children... but YOU would not"

I am happy to post this on that other thread as well - just let me know where it is.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[convicted1]

No one is residing in Hell at this time.

In Christ,

Bob

Oh ho ho, boy have I seen it all now! and, pray tell, where are the lost at now? Where is the rich man that was/is in torments in those flames?

 

[PreachTony]

No one is residing in Hell at this time.

But when the Rev 20 lake of Fire event is initiated by God - associated with the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 - then -- even then God loves the lost as in Matt 23 "O Jerusalem Jerusalem ... how I WANTED to save your children... but YOU would not"

What?!? Surely you cannot be serious? I know the SDAs are different, but I thought you guys still had the Bible... Yes, there are people residing in Hell right now. Isaiah talked about Hell enlarging itself to welcome people, and that was hundreds of years prior to the New Testament. As Bro. Willis pointed out, the rich man was in torments in Hell, and begged for someone to be sent back to warn his brothers. To say no one is in Hell today is to take a direct stance against scripture.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh ho ho, boy have I seen it all now! and, pray tell, where are the lost at now? Where is the rich man that was/is in torments in those flames?

R.C Sproul, Matthew Henry and a lot of others admit that Luke 16 is an obvious "parable" where it is "Abraham" that is sovereign of all saints in heaven - and the prayers to the dead are to Abraham - and not God --

As for John 11, 1 Thess 4 being the correct view of soul sleep - I think there is a thread with that subject in it starting here - #21

The Bible says that at death the body returns to dust and the spirit returns to God who gave it - for all mankind. And that is not universalism because until the resurrection all souls of the dead are in a dormant state according to the Bible.

All of that works out pretty good for the Arminian view.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Protestant]

What thread is that??

(BTW - serious questions welcomed)

agreed. But I am not all-knowing - I need to see the question first.

Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

Pretty much the standard Arminian answer -- not just the SDA answer.

No one is residing in Hell at this time.

But when the Rev 20 lake of Fire event is initiated by God - associated with the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 20 - then -- even then God loves the lost as in Matt 23 "O Jerusalem Jerusalem ... how I WANTED to save your children... but YOU would not"

I am happy to post this on that other thread as well - just let me know where it is.

in Christ,

Bob

Thanks, Bob, for answering my question.

Based upon your view that God loves all people ever born, even those who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, I am most curious how you are able to find consistency in Scriptures which contradicts your theology.

For example: If God loves all people, even those who reject Christ, how then can Scripture declare the opposite --- He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Also, there is this Scripture: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Scripture is quite clear: the love of God does not naturally abide on children, nor does the love of God abide on unbelievers.

Scripture does not contradict itself because truth is not contradictory.

What say you, Bob?

PS I momentarily forgot the SDA doctrine of soul sleep which denies conscious punishment of dead men while awaiting final Judgment.

 

[Yeshua1]

Is that non-Bible comment supposed to be taken seriously??

really?

There seems to be the notion that the reason everyone does not engage in that sort of name-calling emotional vitriol is because "they cannot do it".

But I can assure you that is not why others do not engage in it.

in Christ,

Bob

the SDA is same as the Catholic/JW/Mormon churches, in that they all calim to be the true church here on earth, but All hold to another Gospel!

And if Apostle paul was posting here today, he would agree with me on this matter!

 

[BobRyan]

Yes He does. "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave" John 3:16.

"God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" 2Peter 3.

Thanks, Bob, for answering my question.

Based upon your view that God loves all people ever born, even those who will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, I am most curious how you are able to find consistency in Scriptures which contradicts your theology.

For example: If God loves all people, even those who reject Christ, how then can Scripture declare the opposite --- He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Also, there is this Scripture: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Scripture is quite clear: the love of God does not naturally abide on children, nor does the love of God abide on unbelievers.

Scripture does not contradict itself because truth is not contradictory.

What say you, Bob?

PS I momentarily forgot the SDA doctrine of soul sleep which denies conscious punishment of dead men while awaiting final Judgment.

God knew Judas would fail - and yet he washed his feet.

God knew His own would reject Him - and yet He came to them and yet he weeps over them in places like Matt 23. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem.. how I wanted to save your children...but YOU would not"


[FONT=&quot]Hosea 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]:7 So My people are bent on turning from Me.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Though they call them to the One on high,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]None at all exalts Him.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How can I give you up, O Ephraim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I surrender you, O Israel?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I make you like Admah?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]How can I treat you like Zeboiim?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My heart is turned over within Me,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All My compassions are kindled[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

"He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!" [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2Cor 5: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

Also, there is this Scripture: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Perfect Arminian text showing salvation for those who are "by nature the children of wrath" - proof that the "by nature children of wrath" is not a sign that God does not love or save them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The American Dream]

I am a strong believer in the sovereignty of God. No, I do not agree with Arminianism. However, I would hesitate to call it heretical because IMO there is no way man understands exactly how the two work together where they meet, but God does.

 

[BobRyan]

And as noted here - Calvinism (4 and 5 point in this case) cannot survive this -- #54

 

[Protestant]

Also, there is this Scripture: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Perfect Arminian text showing salvation for those who are "by nature the children of wrath" - proof that the "by nature children of wrath" is not a sign that God does not love or save them.

in Christ,

Bob

Either words have meaning or they do not.

You choose to believe they do not.

Wrath and love are two extremes.

To preach God loves you even when He sends you into the Lake of Fire is to make a mockery of God's holiness, righteousness and everlasting love.

As for the Scriptures which reveal God's pleading to those who call Him 'Lord' to turn from their unbelief and disobedience, those are the same pleas voiced by ex-SDA members to the many who remain to follow a false prophetess and her many errant God-dishonoring doctrines.

Lamentably, the SDAs refuse to hear the voice of God spoken by His true prophets, such as D.M. Canright.

 

[BobRyan]

That is a fine speech but not the Bible.

Let's look at the actual Bible where Christ's lament for those he loves is expressed along with their doom.

Matt 23

7 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate;

[FONT=&quot]Ezek 18[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord GOD. “Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31“Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32“For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and LIVE!"

So then wh[FONT=&quot]at [FONT=&quot]kind of hell - what kind of lake of fire ev[FONT=&quot]ent does God have planned for those who use free will to reject the gospel - and yet he loves them?[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Matt 10:28 "fear Him who can [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]destroy BOTH body AND soul [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]in fiery hell"[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

A perfect fit for the Bible's Arminian model.