Is Baptism essential for salvation

[Darron Steele]

[Accidental double-post. I got logged me out somehow. I logged back in as I was posting, and now there are two. Sorry.]

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Part of the problem with your handling of 1 Peter 3:21 is that you cut Peter off mid-sentence.

Read the rest of his sentence. He clarifies that he does not mean the water bath. He then clarifies what he means.

Gotta go. I will join this more later.

I only quoted part of the scripture to make a point not in negligence of the other part...
1 Ppeter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
From my understanding the second part of this scripture is stating the difference between the form of baptism by water which once saved and the form of baptism by water which saves today. It doesn't say they differ in that one used water and the other doesn't. The difference is this: the first baptism saved by the putting off of the filth of the flesh (physical death), the baptism today saves not by physical death but mental death giving us a new conscious unto God as Paul says in Col 2 and Rom 6 clearly. 1 Peter didn't say that the use of water was lost in baptism nor did it say salvation was lost

 

[Darron Steele]

I only quoted part of the scripture to make a point not in negligence of the other part...
1 Ppeter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
From my understanding the second part of this scripture is stating the difference between the form of baptism by water which once saved and the form of baptism by water which saves today. It doesn't say they differ in that one used water and the other doesn't. The difference is this: the first baptism saved by the putting off of the filth of the flesh (physical death), the baptism today saves not by physical death but mental death giving us a new conscious unto God as Paul says in Col 2 and Rom 6 clearly. 1 Peter didn't say that the use of water was lost in baptism nor did it say salvation was lost

I have very little idea what you are trying to say. No one who has posted on this thread is suggesting that we not baptize in water. I also do not know where you get this apparent idea that Christian baptism has changed, or that Peter is talking about two different baptisms.

I think my understanding of the passage, given in the post prior to your most recent post, makes more sense.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

I have very little idea what you are trying to say. No one who has posted on this thread is suggesting that we not baptize in water. I also do not know where you get this apparent idea that Christian baptism has changed, or that Peter is talking about two different baptisms.

I think my understanding of the passage, given in the post prior to your most recent post, makes more sense.

I didn't say anyone said baptism is not of water I was just explaining my perception of the scripture. Did you read verse 20 ? That is where he mentions the flood saving 8 and he goes on in verse 21 to relate baptism today to the former example of salvation by water. The relation between the two is that the flood removed sin from the earth and baptism today removes sins. Can you see that?
I'm on my phone trying to reply and it's kinda difficult I'll post more later when I get to my computer

 

[Linda64]

Can you please quote posts in your reply because I don't see where anyone said baptism is a replacement for circumcision.

I wasn't quoting anybody in my first post...unlike I am doing here with yours.

Your right my mistake ...My apologies I'm kinda tired over here...

You'll catch on...no problem.

Does salvation not include the forgiveness of our sins? Or can we remain in sin and still be saved? Can we appear before the Most Holy unclean? Did the high priest do it? Or did they have to wash and offer sacrifices for their sins daily (Hebrews 7:27
Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.)
Has God changed? Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
There's only one way I know to have my sins taken away and that is water baptism (Acts 2:38). Sounds essential to me.

Baptism ALWAYS follows belief. It is not water that washes away sins...it is the BLOOD of Jesus Christ. What about the thief on the cross? When we BELIEVE and RECEIVE/TRUST in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross of Calvary, our sins are forgiven and remitted...remember the words of the hymn: "What can wash away my sin? NOTHING but the BLOOD of Jesus!" Jesus Christ is our Great High Priest:

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Water baptism has never saved anyone in the past, can never save anyone in the present, and will never save anyone in the future.

testimony? Did it really sound to you like paul was describing baptism as a sign for the public to see? I'm sure Paul thought it to be an actual operation taking place under the water. Col 2: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It doesn't matter what you believe about Paul was describing...the fact remains that water (believer's) baptism does NOT remit sin...it is an outward and public "testimony"of what has already taken place within a believer's heart...whether you believe it or not. We declare to the public (whoever is present) that we identify with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection.

1 Peter 2:21 doesn't prove your point at all. In that scripture he was correlating the two uses of water to wash away sin. When he says "The like figure (symbol; something used for or regarded as representing something else)" the first form was representing the latter. Besides, this scripture which you used directly contradicts one of your statements : because it says right there "even baptism doth also now save us."

Of course 1 Peter 2:21 doesn't prove my point...I was using 1 Peter 3:21. Water is used as a "figure"...if you will look closely at that verse:

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

This verse shows the error of baptismal regeneration. Baptism is a figure, a symbol, a picture. Baptism is not a part of salvation; it is symbolic of salvation. We are saved, not by water going over our bodies, but by faith in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

If by ordinance you mean "commandment" then yes it is because Jesus did command his apostles to baptize, but if you mean a "sacrament" I disagree.

I said "ordinance", not "sacrament"

BTW, are you a member of the Church of Christ?...or are you Apostolic Pentecostal?

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Besides Darron your previou post implied that Peter wasn't even talking about water baptism ...but my reply shows how he was speaking of water baptism

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus was speaking of water baptism here and not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that happens upon belief?

One can believe in the Lord without receiving the Lord. My oldest brother did.

The devils also believe. They know who Jesus is. The devils in the demoniac of Gadarenes made this statement "What hast thou to do with us, thou Son of David? Art thou come to torment us before the time?"

The devils are well aware of who the Christ was, is and always will be. This is why I believe Jesus said in Mark 16 "He that believeth and is baptized..."

If water baptism was necessary for Salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross who made his profession of faith in his dying hours.

No, to me it is clear the baptism Jesus spoke of in Mark 16 was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Darron Steele]

Besides Darron your previou post implied that Peter wasn't even talking about water baptism ...but my reply shows how he was speaking of water baptism

He was. I never said he was not, nor did I intend to imply it.

I appreciate Linda64's use of the KJV at this verse.

1 Peter 3:21 about "water" of 3:20: "The like figure whereunto|, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (KJV|NASB emphases mine).

Peter made it clear that the bath in water does not save us. He made it clear that the "appeal to God for a good conscience" is what saves us. Peter uses the language of a "figure." Baptism is a "figure" of two things: "an appeal to God for a good conscience" and per Romans 6:2-11, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

From our end, we are saved by "an appeal to God for a good conscience." He expressly said that he did not mean that we are saved by the water bath. Water baptism is "figure" to "appeal to God for a good conscience." Per 1 Corinthians 15, our salvations were dependent upon the Resurrection, which baptism is also a "figure" to.

Now, having addressed your apparent misunderstanding of my post on one particular passage, I ask for input on the additional passages I offered. Your keynote passages have been addressed.

It is now your turn to answer challenges. How would you reconcile a belief that a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ who somehow does not get baptized
a) will be condemned, in the face of John 3:16-8, and
2) will not have receive remission of sins, in the face of Acts 10:43?

I do not see how ANY teaching that some believers on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be saved can be reconciled with those two passages.

 

[TCGreek]

Cornelius was clearly saved by faith in Jesus even before his baptism (Acts 10:43, 44; 15:6-9).

 

[Darron Steele]

Cornelius was clearly saved by faith in Jesus even before his baptism (Acts 10:43, 44; 15:6-9).

That event was so important a precedent that it was discussed THREE times in Acts: in chapters 10, 11, 15. In the latter case, it was the basis for a major church decision.

 

[Tom Butler]

In I Peter 3:21, we need to lookat what the "like figure" refers to. It goes back to the deliverance of Noah and his family, saved by water in v.20. Yet, none of them were immersed in the water. They were borne up in the ark by the water.

Noah and his family had already found grace from the Lord. They were not saved from their sins by water. They were saved from physical death.

That being the case, baptism in 3:21 cannot refer to spiritual salvation. It must refer to something else.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

He was. I never said he was not, nor did I intend to imply it.

Originally Posted by Darron Steele
Part of the problem with your handling of 1 Peter 3:21 is that you cut Peter off mid-sentence.

Read the rest of his sentence. He clarifies that he does not mean the water bath. He then clarifies what he means.







I appreciate Linda64's use of the KJV at this verse.

1 Peter 3:21 about "water" of 3:20: "The like figure whereunto|, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (KJV|NASB emphases mine).

Peter made it clear that the bath in water does not save us. He made it clear that the "appeal to God for a good conscience" is what saves us. Peter uses the language of a "figure." Baptism is a "figure" of two things: "an appeal to God for a good conscience" and per Romans 6:2-11, Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

Now, having addressed your apparent misunderstanding of my post on one particular passage, I ask for input on the additional passages I offered. Your keynote passages have been addressed.

It is now your turn to answer challenges. How would you reconcile a belief that a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ who somehow does not get baptized
a) will be condemned, in the face of John 3:16-8, and
2) will not have receive remission of sins, in the face of Acts 10:43?

I do not see how ANY teaching that some believers on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be saved can be reconciled with those two passages.

I'm not sure if I've explained this topic ("We are saved by belief alone") before but I think James can explain it far better than I can:

James 2:14-22
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

If your belief is dead without works what good is it to you or your salvation?

Dead- No longer functioning, operating, or productive. no longer current or prevalent
No longer in existence, use, or operation.


Nevertheless, who are we to know who will be saved and who won't. Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Does that answer your question?

 

[Darron Steele]

...Now, having addressed your apparent misunderstanding of my post on one particular passage, I ask for input on the additional passages I offered. Your keynote passages have been addressed.

It is now your turn to answer challenges. How would you reconcile a belief that a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ who somehow does not get baptized
a) will be condemned, in the face of John 3:16-8, and
2) will not have receive remission of sins, in the face of Acts 10:43?

I do not see how ANY teaching that some believers on the Lord Jesus Christ will not be saved can be reconciled with those two passages.

I'm not sure if I've explained this topic ("We are saved by belief alone") before but I think James can explain it far better than I can:

James 2:14-22
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

If your belief is dead without works what good is it to you or your salvation?

Dead- No longer functioning, operating, or productive. no longer current or prevalent
No longer in existence, use, or operation.


Nevertheless, who are we to know who will be saved and who won't. Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Does that answer your question?

It does not do much to answer my question to you.

I hope you did not need to refer to the dictionary to know the meaning of "dead." I surely did not need a dictionary definition on that word.

The passages you cite are good for explaining what type of faith we should have. James said it well at James 2:18 "I will shew thee my faith by my works" as you quoted. As we can see, a real believer will live like it.

Still, you seem to assert that a real believer will be unsaved if s/he fails to get baptized. That still flies in the face of John 3:16-8 and Acts 10:43, which assure us that
a) no believer on the Lord Jesus Christ is condemned,
b) that everyone who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ will receive remission of sins.
So, really, you have not answered my challenge. You have not explained how the view you are advancing does not directly contradict these passages.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Cornelius was clearly saved by faith in Jesus even before his baptism (Acts 10:43, 44; 15:6-9).

How does that mean he was saved before baptism? Is it because the scripture says whosoever beleiveth on him shall receive remission of sins? The scripture didn't say sins are remitted upon believing. It said shall receive remission of sins

Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to.

That doesn't mean it happens right on the spot once they believe.

Or are you saying he was saved upon receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism? Where does it say that receiving the Holy Ghost is the end of salvation? Find the scripture for me...I can't find one.

 

[Darron Steele]

"Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to." I hope you did not need the dictionary to know the meaning of that word too. I suspect that TCGreek knows elementary school-level English, and did not need a dictionary definition.

Acts 15:8-9 “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV).

Per Acts 10:43-8, the Holy Spirit came down on these believers before they were baptized in water.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (ASV)​

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Can you prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that Jesus was speaking of water baptism here and not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that happens upon belief?

You make a good point sir... the only thing I have to go off of is what Jesus told the apostles to do in Mark 16:15-16 (15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.) and what they did in Acts 2:38 and many other scriptures. They didn't got out preaching baptism of the Holy Spirit, instead when they mentioned "baptism" or when they "baptized" it was water baptism.

One can believe in the Lord without receiving the Lord. My oldest brother did.

The devils also believe. They know who Jesus is. The devils in the demoniac of Gadarenes made this statement "What hast thou to do with us, thou Son of David? Art thou come to torment us before the time?"

Yes that's true the devils did also believe and tremble. Yes one can believe in the Lord and not receive him.

The devils are well aware of who the Christ was, is and always will be. This is why I believe Jesus said in Mark 16 "He that believeth and is baptized..."

I don't understand your point on this particular statement

If water baptism was necessary for Salvation, then Jesus lied to the thief on the cross who made his profession of faith in his dying hours.

No not necessarily because while Jesus was on earth he had the power to forgive sins. Matthew 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. Jesus could've and probably did forgive that mans sins right there without baptism.

No, to me it is clear the baptism Jesus spoke of in Mark 16 was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

He very well could have been speaking of baptism of the Holy Spirit , but it doesn't sound to me like you're too sure about that.

 

[Amy.G]

Or are you saying he was saved upon receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism? Where does it say that receiving the Holy Ghost is the end of salvation? Find the scripture for me...I can't find one.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


When Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, he was sealed by the Holy Spirit who does not break His promise of eternal life. He was sealed before he was baptized in water.

This verse makes it clear what happens at salvation.
We hear the gospel, we believe it and we are sealed for the day of redemption.



2 Tim, do you believe water baptism saves?

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

"Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to." I hope you did not need the dictionary to know the meaning of that word too. I suspect that TCGreek knows elementary school-level English, and did not need a dictionary definition.

Acts 15:8-9 “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV).

Per Acts 10:43-8, the Holy Spirit came down on these believers before they were baptized in water.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. (ASV)​

Yeah well I don't profess myself to be wise... that is how I study I look up words . I don't assume I already know the meaning of them even though I might. When I study I'm trying to find something new I don't just stay locked in to what I previously learned.

Those scriptures were already quoted... can you explain why you're using them?
You seem like you're getting a little aggravated Darron. We 're just having a little discussion here nobody's attacking you.

 

[Zenas]

John 3:5 -- is that talking about baptism? It says "born of water and the Spirit" if I am not mistaken. Given how ancient Hebrew terminology described natural birth, and John 3:3-6, I have a problem believing this passage is talking about baptism.

Darron, there was a time not so long ago when I shared this belief. Actually it never occurred to me that this verse might refer to baptism until I read Bible footnotes and commentaries that would raise this as one possible interpretation and then quickly dismiss the possibility. Then I started to read commentaries outside our Baptist world and learned that "born of water and the Spirit" is widely thought to mean baptism. Then I started reading the early church fathers and learned there was complete unanimity among them that John 3:5 refers to Baptism. Frankly, when it comes to knowing what these ancient writers of Scripture meant, I will defer to the early church fathers who spoke the same language, lived in the same era and understood all the idioms and nuances of the language. Many of them addressed this idea of being born of water and the Spirit. For the sake of brevity I will quote from only three:
Justin Martyr, First Apology Ch. 61 (circa 150):

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, Unless you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Iranaeus, Fragment 34 (circa 190):

And dipped himself, says [the Scripture], seven times in Jordan. 2 Kings 5:14 It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [it served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Augustine, Letters 98:2 (circa 412):

But the possibility of regeneration through the office rendered by the will of another, when the child is presented to receive the sacred rite, is the work exclusively of the Spirit by whom the child thus presented is regenerated. For it is not written, Except a man be born again by the will of his parents, or by the faith of those presenting the child, or of those administering the ordinance, but, Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit. By the water, therefore, which holds forth the sacrament of grace in its outward form, and by the Spirit who bestows the benefit of grace in its inward power, cancelling the bond of guilt, and restoring natural goodness [reconcilians bonum naturæ], the man deriving his first birth originally from Adam alone, is regenerated in Christ alone

.
No Church Father ever referred to John 3:5 as referring to anything other than baptism.

 

[Darron Steele]

Yeah well I don't profess myself to be wise... that is how I study I look up words . I don't assume I already know the meaning of them even though I might. When I study I'm trying to find something new I don't just stay locked in to what I previously learned.

Those scriptures were already quoted... can you explain why you're using them?
You seem like you're getting a little aggravated Darron. We 're just having a little discussion here nobody's attacking you.

I am not aggravated, nor do I think I am being attacked.

I did think it was strange that you seemed to be quoting dictionary definitions of basic English words. As neither I nor TCGreek need a dictionary to know what "dead" or "shall" means, I did not see why you needed to quote them in your posts to us. We certainly did not need them.

I also do not understand why you do not directly address the passages quoted to you prior and that I have repeatedly pointed you to. Let me simultaneously quote them again and explain why I am using them.

Your position seems to be that if someone does not get baptized, s/he will not be saved. That means that if for some reason a believer on Jesus Christ never arises from a baptism, s/he will not be pardoned for sins committed and faces condemnation.

I believe that this view is directly contrary to Scripture. I quote two passages again. First, John 3:16-8 spoken by Jesus Christ regarding Himself

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|: he that believeth not hath been |condemned| already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God” (ASV with |TNIV|).”​

Acts 10:43, spoken by Peter,

"To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV).​

The passages state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemntation and guarantees remission of sins. Your position, contrary to these passages, seems to be `If a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ never gets baptized, s/he will not be saved, will not get remission of sins, and is condemned.'

I am using the passages because they state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemnation and guarantees remission of sins. This is something you seem to assert is not true if a believer fails to get baptized. Therefore, I believe your view is in direct contradiction to these passages.

I challenge you to explain how your apparent view is not directly contrary to these passages.