Is Baptism essential for salvation

[Darron Steele]

...
.
No Church Father ever referred to John 3:5 as referring to anything other than baptism.

I do not care what any "Church Father" thought about that part of John 3:3-6 -- especially if they are as late as Justin Martyr and afterward.

I am interested in what was being communicated by Jesus to Nicodemus at John 3:3-6. As ancient Hebrews, they would have meant and understood this conversation in ancient Hebrew meanings. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Augustine were not ancient Hebrews -- they were Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking people from outside Palestine, and all wrote well over 100 years after this conversation.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,


When Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, he was sealed by the Holy Spirit who does not break His promise of eternal life. He was sealed before he was baptized in water.

This verse makes it clear what happens at salvation.
We hear the gospel, we believe it and we are sealed for the day of redemption.



2 Tim, do you believe water baptism saves?

I believe being born again (which includes repentance, baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost, no one part working without the other) saves. I say that because I don't think we can obey in part and still be saved. Peter, to whom the keys to the kingdom were given, commanded in Acts 2 that those men 1. repent 2. be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins 3. and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[DHK]

I believe being born again (which includes repentance, baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost, no one part working without the other) saves. I say that because I don't think we can obey in part and still be saved. Peter, to whom the keys to the kingdom were given, commanded in Acts 2 that those men 1. repent 2. be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins 3. and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And that is Church of Christ doctrine.
It includes a heresy called "baptismal regeneration," meaning that the "work of baptism" man's work, is necessary for salvation. This is an affornt, an insult to Christ.
It means that when Christ said: "It is finished," meaning the work of Christ on the cross, the payment for our sins, his sacrificial blood shed for us, that you come along and say--"Nope Jesus, that is not enough. You have failed. I need to help your atonement by being baptized. You failed Christ. I have to help you out by my baptism. After all I need to have a part in salvation too.
A "works salvatioin" is no salvation at all.

 

[Amy.G]

I believe being born again (which includes repentance, baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost, no one part working without the other) saves. I say that because I don't think we can obey in part and still be saved. Peter, to whom the keys to the kingdom were given, commanded in Acts 2 that those men 1. repent 2. be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins 3. and they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So how do you interpret this verse to mean baptism is part of salvation, when it does not say that. In fact, it says that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe.

Eph 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[TCGreek]

How does that mean he was saved before baptism? Is it because the scripture says whosoever beleiveth on him shall receive remission of sins? The scripture didn't say sins are remitted upon believing. It said shall receive remission of sins

Shall -plan to, intend to, or expect to; will have to, is determined to.

That doesn't mean it happens right on the spot once they believe.

Or are you saying he was saved upon receiving the Holy Ghost before baptism? Where does it say that receiving the Holy Ghost is the end of salvation? Find the scripture for me...I can't find one.

I couldn't help but noticed your clear avoidance of the plain teaching of Scripture in reference to Cornelius. Wow!

According to Acts 10:43, it's faith in Jesus's name that results in the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is simply an evidence of that.

As a ceremonial practice, baptism does not point to itself, but like a true ceremony it points to that which it symbolizes, in this case, forgiveness of sins.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Your position seems to be that if someone does not get baptized, s/he will not be saved. That means that if for some reason a believer on Jesus Christ never arises from a baptism, s/he will not be pardoned for sins committed and faces condemnation.

First, John 3:16-8 spoken by Jesus Christ regarding Himself

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|: he that believeth not hath been |condemned| already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God”​

My beliefs are not contrary to this scripture at all. My views are simply that belief in Jesus alone does not save us, which does to you sound contrary to what Jesus is saying. But if what I just said is contrary then what James 2 says is contrary (James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?). I don't believe these to be contrary to John 3:16, neither do I believe any of the scriptures are contrary to one another, but rather that they are all credible. One scripture may describe one thing without mentioning the other and that other thing may get mentioned later on in another scripture, but they all work together. Like it says in Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

So putting John 3:16 and James 2:20 together into one concept along with everything else I said concerning all the scriptures being coherent, I've come to the conclusion that just because you believe, doesn't mean you are guaranteed salvation. You must believe in Jesus the Christ, repent from your previous works and get baptized in the name of Jesus. All these things working together not wavering.

Oh keep in mind that the devils did also believe... was Jesus saying that they are also not condemned?

(ASV with |TNIV|).”

Acts 10:43, spoken by Peter,

"To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him shall receive remission of sins" (ASV).​

The passages state explicitly that belief on Jesus Christ assures no condemntation and guarantees remission of sins. Your position, contrary to these passages, seems to be `If a believer on the Lord Jesus Christ never gets baptized, s/he will not be saved, will not get remission of sins, and is condemned.'

I think all that I said above applies here also. I just want to add that for a person to believe in Jesus he must accept and do all that he says and all that his apostles say to do because he sent them. Belief doesn't just stop at saying "I believe in Jesus and accept him in my life", it constitutes an action. So if I believe in Jesus I will repent, and be baptized for the remission of my sins. That is how by belief you are guaranteed remission of sins, because your confidence in Jesus will allow you to humble yourself to his commandments (and the apostles). And as I stated before , "who are we to say who will be saved and who won't" because the scripture says Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Is that the type of answer you're looking for?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Exactly!

A person who is not saved does not have the Holy Ghost. Those who were baptized in Acts 10 already had the Holy Ghost. They were already saved prior to their baptism in water!

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

I couldn't help but noticed your clear avoidance of the plain teaching of Scripture in reference to Cornelius. Wow!

According to Acts 10:43 it's faith in Jesus's name that results in the forgiveness of sins. Baptism is simply an evidence of that.

As a ceremonial practice, baptism does not point to itself, but like a true ceremony it points to that which it symbolizes, in this case, forgiveness of sins.

Yeah well according to Acts 2:38 it's baptism that results in forgiveness of sins.
"be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

So which scripture is right ? You can decide, but I'd rather accept both as true and right.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Yeah well according to Acts 2:38 it's baptism that results in forgiveness of sins.
"be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

So which scripture is right ? You can decide, but I'd rather accept both as true and right.

Helloooooo

that word 'for' in Acts 2 does not mean 'to receive,' as you suppose. It means 'because of'

Because their sins were in remission, they were to be baptized in obedience to God.

 

[annsni]

I do not care what any "Church Father" thought about that part of John 3:3-6 -- especially if they are as late as Justin Martyr and afterward.

I am interested in what was being communicated by Jesus to Nicodemus at John 3:3-6. As ancient Hebrews, they would have meant and understood this conversation in ancient Hebrew meanings. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Augustine were not ancient Hebrews -- they were Greek-speaking and Latin-speaking people from outside Palestine, and all wrote well over 100 years after this conversation.

I agree. It is clear that since Nicodemus brought up natural birth that Jesus would refer to it as He continued His teaching.

 

[TCGreek]

Yeah well according to Acts 2:38 it's baptism that results in forgiveness of sins.
"be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins"

So which scripture is right ? You can decide, but I'd rather accept both as true and right.

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "results in."

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Exactly!

A person who is not saved does not have the Holy Ghost. Those who were baptized in Acts 10 already had the Holy Ghost. They were already saved!

How could they have been saved if they still bore there sins? Oh but I forgot some of you don't believe baptism is for the remission of sins right? Just believe and your sins are remitted?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

also, remission is not forgiveness as he supposes.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Acts 2:38 doesn't say "results in."

I know it doesn't... this is what it says " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

 

[standingfirminChrist]

How could they have been saved if they still bore there sins? Oh but I forgot some of you don't believe baptism is for the remission of sins right? Just believe and your sins are remitted?

Peter told them to Repent, that means to have a change of mind about their sins. If they repent of their sins, they are not going to want to commit them anymore.

Paul did not want to sin in Romans 7 and yet, because of the weakness of the flesh, he found himself sinning.

Now, back to Peter in Acts 2...

When one repents as Peter commanded, there will be a remission of sin in their lives. Not that they will not sin from time to time, but the repentance has brought about a remission. Baptism follows because of the remission, not to bring it about.

 

[TCGreek]

I know it doesn't... this is what it says " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "

In Eph 1:13, 14, Paul says that we receive the Spirit when we believe, which is further proof that baptism is only ceremonial, pointing to which it symbolizes.

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

Helloooooo

that word 'for' in Acts 2 does not mean 'to receive,' as you suppose. It means 'because of'

Because their sins were in remission, they were to be baptized in obedience to God.

See Darron you said little words don't have to be looked up.

For-in order to obtain, gain, or acquire; with the object or purpose of

So it is saying be baptized in order to obtain the remisssion of sins

Where did you get your definition of "for" from?

 

[2 Tim. 2:15]

also, remission is not forgiveness as he supposes.

Are you serious? Remission is not forgiveness as I suppose? Hey I didn't write the dictionaries so I'm not supposing anything ...My definitions come from a dictionary.

Remission- pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses

 

[standingfirminChrist]

See Darron you said little words don't have to be looked up.

For-in order to obtain, gain, or acquire; with the object or purpose of

So it is saying be baptized in order to obtain the remisssion of sins

Where did you get your definition of "for" from?

Is your vocabulary limited to only one definition for the word 'for'? There are many definitions for that word. Note the ones I bolded for you.

From Dictionary.com:

for

//

", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionary%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FF02%2FF0277100.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> Audio Help /fɔr; unstressed fər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fawr; unstressed fer] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –preposition 1.with the object or purpose of: to run for exercise. 2.intended to belong to, or be used in connection with: equipment for the army; a closet for dishes. 3.suiting the purposes or needs of: medicine for the aged. 4.in order to obtain, gain, or acquire: a suit for alimony; to work for wages. 5.(used to express a wish, as of something to be experienced or obtained): O, for a cold drink! 6.sensitive or responsive to: an eye for beauty. 7.desirous of: a longing for something; a taste for fancy clothes. 8.in consideration or payment of; in return for: three for a dollar; to be thanked for one's efforts. 9.appropriate or adapted to: a subject for speculation; clothes for winter. 10.with regard or respect to: pressed for time; too warm for April. 11.during the continuance of: for a long time. 12.in favor of; on the side of: to be for honest government. 13.in place of; instead of: a substitute for butter. 14.in the interest of; on behalf of: to act for a client. 15.in exchange for; as an offset to: blow for blow; money for goods. 16.in punishment of: payment for the crime. 17.in honor of: to give a dinner for a person. 18.with the purpose of reaching: to start for London. 19.contributive to: for the advantage of everybody. 20.in order to save: to flee for one's life. 21.in order to become: to train recruits for soldiers. 22.in assignment or attribution to: an appointment for the afternoon; That's for you to decide. 23.such as to allow of or to require: too many for separate mention. 24.such as results in: his reason for going. 25.as affecting the interests or circumstances of: bad for one's health. 26.in proportion or with reference to: He is tall for his age. 27.in the character of; as being: to know a thing for a fact. 28.by reason of; because of: to shout for joy; a city famed for its beauty. 29.in spite of: He's a decent guy for all that. 30.to the extent or amount of: to walk for a mile. 31.(used to introduce a subject in an infinitive phrase): It's time for me to go. 32.(used to indicate the number of successes out of a specified number of attempts): The batter was 2 for 4 in the game. –conjunction 33.seeing that; since. 34.because. —Idiom35.for it, British. in (def. 33).

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Are you serious? Remission is not forgiveness as I suppose? Hey I didn't write the dictionaries so I'm not supposing anything ...My definitions come from a dictionary.

Remission- pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses

Buy yourself a good dictionary. Remission means more that pardon or forgiveness.

re·mis·sion

//

", "6"); Audio Help /rɪˈmɪʃ

ən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ri-mish-uh

n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the act of remitting. 2.pardon; forgiveness, as of sins or offenses. 3.abatement or diminution, as of diligence, labor, intensity, etc. 4.the relinquishment of a payment, obligation, etc. 5.Medicine/Medical. a.a temporary or permanent decrease or subsidence of manifestations of a disease. b.a period during which such a decrease or subsidence occurs: The patient's leukemia was in remission.