Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[Darron Steele]

...
These commands are as follows:

Believe - John 3:16, Acts 8:37 and many others
Repent - Acts 2:38, 17:30, others
Confess - Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:38 (example)
Be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16 (explicit command), 8:36; 16:33 (implied)

Again, let me emphasize, NONE of these things allows man to earn his salvation. NONE of these things is a work of merit or of Law....

Believe and repent are the same thing.

Confess is a work done after belief, as is getting oneself baptized.

If you want to change "works" to `works of merit' or `works of the Law' you are going to have trouble.

Ephesians 2:8-10 in the Bible:
“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).

Ephesians 2:8-10 proposed alteration #1:
`for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works of merit, so that no one may boast himselfe. For in Christ Jesus, God made us new people unto good works of merit, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them”

Problem: This proposed alteration would have us being saved to do `works of merit.' This is impossible; Christ’s servants have no boast toward Him -- Luke 17:10.

Ephesians 2:8-10 proposed alteration #2:
`for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works of the Law, so that no one may boast himselfe. For in Christ Jesus, God made us new people unto good works of the Law, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them”

Problem: this would have us saved to do works of the Judaic Law. Gentiles are free from it per Acts 21:24-5.

Ephesians 2:8-10 in the Bible:
“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).

No problem: "works" means just that -- "works."

I would never suggest that Christians need not confess Jesus Christ as Lord, nor would I suggest Christians need not get themselves baptized. Still, the question of this thread revolves around whether or not a person is unsaved if s/he is unbaptized. If the person has biblical faith, s/he will be saved whether s/he is baptized or not.

 

[BTM]

Believe and repent are the same thing.

Not so, sir. Many believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but are unwilling to repent of their sins. I was one of them for years.

Joh 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Joh 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Neither did they repent, seeing as it was these same men who had Christ condemned. Yet, they believed.

Confess is a work done after belief, as is getting oneself baptized.

Again, $100 to anyone who can show where the Bible calls baptism (or confession) a work.

If you want to change "works" to `works of merit' or `works of the Law' you are going to have trouble.

Ephesians 2:8-10 in the Bible:
“for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may |boast himselfe. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| unto good works, which God hath ordained that we should walk in them” (ESV|GenB|ICB|KJV).

No problem: "works" means just that -- "works."

And yet, when we read in James 2 we find,

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It's the same word translated "works" in every case. Same word used in Eph2:8-10. It doesn't always refer to the same thing.

Abraham's offering of Isaac was neither a work of Law or of merit, yet he was justified by it. It was a work of obedience. It didn't make any sense (as baptism doesn't for seemingly so many), yet God commanded him to do it, and only after he did it was his faith made complete and he was justified.

 

[DHK]

Again, $100 to anyone who can show where the Bible calls baptism (or confession) a work.

If you would pay up with all these boastful error-filled statements, you would be losing a lot of money. Just donate mine to the Baptist Board. :laugh:

 

[Darron Steele]

Believe and repent are the same thing.....

Not so, sir. Many believe that Jesus is the Son of God, but are unwilling to repent of their sins. I was one of them for years. ...

Then you were not a believer in the Scriptural sense.

A person who genuinely believes that Jesus Christ is Lord recognizes that He is to be obeyed. S/he feels a duty to obey Him.

A person who believes that Jesus Christ is Lord cannot believe it is okay to continue in sin. If a person believes that s/he can live in ways that are sinful, then s/he cannot truly believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

 

[Marcia]

And yet, when we read in James 2 we find,

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

It's the same word translated "works" in every case. Same word used in Eph2:8-10. It doesn't always refer to the same thing.

Abraham's offering of Isaac was neither a work of Law or of merit, yet he was justified by it. It was a work of obedience. It didn't make any sense (as baptism doesn't for seemingly so many), yet God commanded him to do it, and only after he did it was his faith made complete and he was justified.

You are misunderstanding and misusing James 2 just as the Mormons do. This is exactly what they say. And I'll tell you what I say to them.

Justification does not always mean salvific justification. Two verses later, James tells us that Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness (this is from the OT and is also in Galatians at least twice).

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2.23

So do James 2.23 and 2.21 conflict? No. James is talking about justification of our faith before men - our works show our faith. This is another type of justification. This is James' theme here.

 

[Marcia]

From Matthew Henry:

The justification of which Paul speaks is different from that spoken of by James; the one speaks of our persons being justified before God, the other speaks of our faith being justified before men: "Show me thy faith by thy works,’’ says James, "let thy faith be justified in the eyes of those that behold thee by thy works;’’ but Paul speaks of justification in the sight of God, who justifies those only that believe in Jesus, and purely on account of the redemption that is in him. Thus we see that our persons are justified before God by faith, but our faith is justified before men by works. This is so plainly the scope and design of the apostle James that he is but confirming what Paul, in other places, says of his faith, that it is a laborious faith, and a faith working by love, Gal. 5:6; 1 Th. 1:3; Titus 3:8; and many other places.

 

[Don]

Then you were not a believer in the Scriptural sense.

A person who genuinely believes that Jesus Christ is Lord recognizes that He is to be obeyed. S/he feels a duty to obey Him.

A person who believes that Jesus Christ is Lord cannot believe it is okay to continue in sin. If a person believes that s/he can live in ways that are sinful, then s/he cannot truly believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.

You must be careful to ensure you specify "saving belief." Are we not told in James that even the devils believe, and tremble? Yet we know they have no place in heaven.

Thus, a distinction between belief and repentence.

 

[Darron Steele]

You must be careful to ensure you specify "saving belief." Are we not told in James that even the devils believe, and tremble? Yet we know they have no place in heaven.

Thus, a distinction between belief and repentence.

I never used "saving belief" but I will use your word. The belief of the demons is not "saving faith." Demons have no possibility of salvation anyway.

A "saving faith" is a genuine belief that Jesus Christ is Lord, and must involve repentance from living contrary to His ways.

 

[BTM]

Justification does not always mean salvific justification. Two verses later, James tells us that Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness (this is from the OT and is also in Galatians at least twice).

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. James 2.23

So do James 2.23 and 2.21 conflict? No. James is talking about justification of our faith before men - our works show our faith. This is another type of justification. This is James' theme here.

What difference does it make for us to be justified before men? When did that become a NT priority?

Abraham's action (work) was the evidence of his belief (faith). Faith can't be seen until it works. Works are the evidence of things not seen (belief). together they make faith.

When was the Scripture fulfilled? Was it before Abraham offered Isaac or after? Abraham's faith was demonstrated, made perfect, by his work of obedience. There were no other people around when Abraham offered Isaac. It was just him and Isaac up on Mt. Moriah before God.

Abraham was justified before God when he obeyed Him.

 

[Don]

I never used "saving belief" but I will use your word. The belief of the demons is not "saving faith." Demons have no possibility of salvation anyway.

A "saving faith" is a genuine belief that Jesus Christ is Lord, and must involve repentance from living contrary to His ways.

You used the phrase "genuinely believes"; I was ensuring I understood you correctly. This correlates with Hebrews 10, where it is mentioned that there are those who believe, and then there are those who believe to the saving of their souls.

 

[Marcia]

What difference does it make for us to be justified before men? When did that become a NT priority?

Being justified before men means they see our faith and it is evidence of Christ working in believers. All the NT scriptures about how to live the Christian life show this as a priority. Also, we are told to love other believers so that unbeleivers will see this and know we are of God. So our actions do matter to the world.

Abraham's action (work) was the evidence of his belief (faith). Faith can't be seen until it works. Works are the evidence of things not seen (belief). together they make faith.

No, works are not a part of faith, but a result of faith.

When was the Scripture fulfilled? Was it before Abraham offered Isaac or after? Abraham's faith was demonstrated, made perfect, by his work of obedience. There were no other people around when Abraham offered Isaac. It was just him and Isaac up on Mt. Moriah before God.
Abraham was justified before God when he obeyed Him

That's not what the Bible teaches.

Do you want me to copy out all the verses that say Abraham was justified by faith?

We cannot be salvifically justified by obedience.

 

[Marcia]

Double post (I clicked twice). Sorry!

 

[BTM]

Being justified before men means they see our faith and it is evidence of Christ working in believers. All the NT scriptures about how to live the Christian life show this as a priority. Also, we are told to love other believers so that unbeleivers will see this and know we are of God. So our actions do matter to the world.

Agreed, our actions in this world do matter. As we live as we believe we ought, the world will see us. They won't always like it or appreciate it, but they'll see it. But God also sees it, and when we are obedient to His word (walking by faith), He justifies us. Jesus was not justified by men, but He was by God.

No, works are not a part of faith, but a result of faith.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Not the same, yet inseparable. Either is incomplete and ineffective without the other.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

One could conclude that the reverse of these is also true.

That's not what the Bible teaches.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Actually, that is what the Bible teaches. These are Bible verses.

Do you want me to copy out all the verses that say Abraham was justified by faith?

You can if you like, but remember that Abraham's faith was coupled with, and completed or perfected by his works of obedience. When the Bible says "faith", it doesn't mean "faith only". In fact, there's only one place in all the Bible where "faith" and "only" are used together in a sentence. Here it is.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We cannot be salvifically justified by obedience.

Is "salvifically" even a word?

Is justification possible apart from salvation?

What would be the point?

 

[DHK]

BTM
You can quote those verses all you want, but they are meaningless as long as you continue to quote them out of their context, and refuse to look at them in their context. All Scripture has context. Context determines the meaning of words. Marcia gave you the proper meaning of the word, justification here--before men. How do we know? Because of the context.
Let's look at a simple example:

The Bible states: "There is no God." It definitely says that. Does it teach that there is no God?
To answer that one must look at the context which is given in Psa.14:1
Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
--The context gives us the answer: The fool says that there is no God.
The Lord doesn't say, but the fool does.

Likewise you cannot ignore the context of James.
You cannot ignore the verses, the passage, the chapter, and even the context of the book.

The context of the Book of James (unlike Romans) is not salvation. The theme of the entire book is "Practical Christian Living." Notice in each chapter he addresses the "brethren." He addresses practical problems: problems of the tongue, the rich in the church, wisdom, works, etc. These are problems, every-day problems that Christians face. They are not problems relating to salvation. And so it is with Chapter two. He is addressing Christians.
The key verse in that section is this one:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
--It is a challenge issued by James.
True or genuine faith is evidenced by works. James declares that one cannot demonstrate their faith without their works. It is the same truth that is taught in Eph.2:8-10.

Abraham was not justified (before God) by faith. But his justification before men was evidenced by his works. Likewise with Rahab the harlot. Her justification before the eyes of man was evidenced by her works.
If you compare this passage to Romans 4:1-5, there is no contradiction. If you explain the passage the way that you explain it, then the Bible contradicts itself; but we know that there is no contradiction in the Bible.

Look again at a previous verse in James 2:
James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
--If you say you have faith, and your faith is not evidenced by works, then is your faith genuine? This is written to Christians, not to the unsaved.

 

[BTM]

Just because it's written to Christians does not preclude it speaking of salvation. Every epistle Paul wrote was to Christians! Even Romans.

Works perfect faith. James uses the illustration of a destitute brother to remind them of this precept. They had apparently been respecters of persons regarding their treatment of others. Their actions were not in harmony with their professed faith. The proper works were missing.

Just as they had been saved by obeying the gospel, they needed to continue in faithful obedience. They were messing up, James corrects them. It's a letter designed to bring Christians back into line, and encourage them to continue in faithfulness.

Has anyone found a definition for "salvifically" yet?

 

[DHK]

Just because it's written to Christians does not preclude it speaking of salvation. Every epistle Paul wrote was to Christians! Even Romans.

Works perfect faith. James uses the illustration of a destitute brother to remind them of this precept. They had apparently been respecters of persons regarding their treatment of others. Their actions were not in harmony with their professed faith. The proper works were missing.

Just as they had been saved by obeying the gospel, they needed to continue in faithful obedience. They were messing up, James corrects them. It's a letter designed to bring Christians back into line, and encourage them to continue in faithfulness.

Has anyone found a definition for "salvifically" yet?

Your first words "Just because," betray you.
You ignore a person's explanation. You ignore principles of hermeneutics, which apparently you have never taken.

You might as well believe that the Bible teaches "there is no God," for that is what it says.
Context is important, but you throw it out the window like a filthy rag.

 

[BTM]

Okay, so what men did Abraham justify himself before by offering Isaac?

 

[DHK]

Okay, so what men did Abraham justify himself before by offering Isaac?

All could see, that Abraham by his works was justified.
No man, but a righteous or saved man, would do what Abraham did.
All men knew who the God of Abraham was. They knew because of his works, his walk with God, God working for him, and walking with him, and he with God.
The focus is on others, others that could see the works of Abraham and know that he was justified.

 

[Don]

Ephesians 2:10

 

[TCGreek]

These commands are as follows:

Believe - John 3:16, Acts 8:37 and many others
Repent - Acts 2:38, 17:30, others
Confess - Rom 10:9-10, Acts 8:38 (example)
Be Baptized - Acts 2:38, 22:16 (explicit command), 8:36; 16:33 (implied)

BTW,

If you're going to use Scripture to build your manmade formula, at least use it faithfully:

According to Scripture, even your manmade order is out of order: whenever repentance and faith occur together, repentance always precedes faith (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21; Heb 6:1).

I thought you people allowed Scripture to speak. What happened?