Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?

[TCGreek]

Paul is careful, both times, to show that when Abraham believed God that that is what put him in the right with God, not works of any kind (Rom 4:5; Gal 3:6).

In Romans Paul is presenting the pure gospel and uses Abraham as the model of how people are justified before God (Rom 4:1-5:1).

In Galatians Paul is defending the pure gospel and uses Abraham as the model of how people are justified before God (Gal 3:1-29).

Why are some intent on distorting this clear presentation of the gospel (Gal 1:6-9)?

 

[BTM]

Paul is careful, both times, to show that when Abraham believed God that that is what put him in the right with God, not works of any kind (Rom 4:5; Gal 3:6).

If we go back just a few verses in Romans to 3:28, we see that the works Paul was speaking of were "works of the law". The letter to the Romans begins and ends promoting the idea of obedience.

Rom 1:5 - By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:26 - But now is made manifest, and by the scriptuyres of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans Paul is presenting the pure gospel and uses Abraham as the model of how people are justified before God (Rom 4:1-5:1).

In Galatians Paul is defending the pure gospel and uses Abraham as the model of how people are justified before God (Gal 3:1-29).

Paul uses Abraham as an example of being justified apart from the Law. James uses Abraham to show that we must do what God says. They were not opposed to each other. They were back to back, fighting against two different false doctrines.

Paul spent alot of time undoing the damage done by Judaizers. They were teaching that the Gentile converts pretty much had to become Jews in order to be saved (be circumsized & keep the Law). Paul showed that Abraham was justified by his faith in God before the Law ever existed.

James seems to have been giving an inspired kick in the pants to Christians who thought that since they had obeyed the gospel, they didn't have to do anything else. James used Abraham as an example of being justified by obeying God's commands. He shows how faith is incomplete, ineffective, dead apart from corresponding works. He shows how works complete, make effective, give life to faith.

 

[Marcia]

Agreed, our actions in this world do matter. As we live as we believe we ought, the world will see us. They won't always like it or appreciate it, but they'll see it. But God also sees it, and when we are obedient to His word (walking by faith), He justifies us. Jesus was not justified by men, but He was by God.

Where does the Bible say Jesus was justified? He didn't need to be justified (made righteous) in the salvific sense.

Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. Not the same, yet inseparable. Either is incomplete and ineffective without the other.

They are not inseparable for salvation. Only faith is needed for salvation.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

One could conclude that the reverse of these is also true.

Faith without works is dead; in other words, what kind of faith do you have if it is not producing works? This has nothing to do with being saved by works, or being made righteous by works.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Actually, that is what the Bible teaches. These are Bible verses.

Abraham's works revealed his faith; the justification there is not salvation. Below is where Abraham got justfified in a salvific manner - by faith.

Rom. 4:
9Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

10How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised;
11and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,
12and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

19Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;

20yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,
21and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Gal 3:6
6Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Rom 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

You can if you like, but remember that Abraham's faith was coupled with, and completed or perfected by his works of obedience. When the Bible says "faith", it doesn't mean "faith only". In fact, there's only one place in all the Bible where "faith" and "only" are used together in a sentence. Here it is.

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

His faith was perfected or made complete by works but he was already saved before the works. The works perfect or complete the faith because they reveal the faith.

Is "salvifically" even a word?

Yes.

Is justification possible apart from salvation?

What would be the point

Salvation is justification if one is speaking of salvific justification, that is, being made righteous in God's eyes -- this can only be done through faith.

You seem to not realize that justification has more than one meaning. One meaning is being made righteous in God's eyes - it is salvation, being saved. This is done through faith alone.

Justification by works is the person's faith being made visible through works. The meaning of these words must be drawn from the context, and justification by faith is salvation. Works have nothing to do with it.

Do you think you can be saved by works - by anything apart from faith?

 

[Darron Steele]

Marcia and all, PLEASE read this.

In normal Church of Christ terminology, "obedience" means `works' and is distinct from faith.

In the New Testament, "obedience" is an attitude that is encompassed within "faith." You can see this in such places as Romans 10:16-7 and Hebrews 3:18-9. This is the understanding I think most of us are familiar with.

If you do not take notice of this difference in word meanings, a lot of misunderstanding and frustration can result.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia and all, PLEASE read this.

In normal Church of Christ terminology, "obedience" means `works' and is distinct from faith.

In the New Testament, "obedience" is an attitude that is encompassed within "faith." You can see this in such places as Romans 10:16-7 and Hebrews 3:18-9. This is the understanding I think most of us are familiar with.

If you do not take notice of this difference in word meanings, a lot of misunderstanding and frustration can result.

Darron, why are you addressing me?

 

[BTM]

Faith without works is dead; in other words, what kind of faith do you have if it is not producing works? This has nothing to do with being saved by works, or being made righteous by works.

So we're saved by a dead workless faith, and this produces a living, working faith?

Come on...

His faith was perfected or made complete by works but he was already saved before the works. The works perfect or complete the faith because they reveal the faith.

How or when Abraham was saved is not at issue. Abraham was never commanded to be baptized. People keep confusing the NT command to be baptized for the remission of sins with circumcision and the Mosaic Law.

Does the command to be baptized exist in the NT?

If it does, then what is the reason for baptism as given in the NT?

It the command and the reason exist, why do so many have such a hard time complying with the command?

These are the questions to be answered.

Salvation is justification if one is speaking of salvific justification, that is, being made righteous in God's eyes -- this can only be done through faith.

You seem to not realize that justification has more than one meaning. One meaning is being made righteous in God's eyes - it is salvation, being saved. This is done through faith alone.

Show scripture saying we are justified, saved, anything by "faith alone", or "faith only".

Justification by works is the person's faith being made visible through works. The meaning of these words must be drawn from the context, and justification by faith is salvation. Works have nothing to do with it.

Of all the conditions of salvation in the NT, only two are described as works: Faith and repentance. Can one be saved without these?

Do you think you can be saved by works - by anything apart from faith?

Apart from faith? Of course not! Without faith, none of the rest (repentance, confession, baptism, Christian living) make any sense or are of any eternal value.

Faith (belief) is the motivation to obey the commands of the gospel and be saved.

 

[Marcia]

So we're saved by a dead workless faith, and this produces a living, working faith?

Come on...

No, we're saved by faith, period. If you have an argument with this, see the above scriptures. Your argument is with God's word, not mine. It if is a true faith, we will see fruit from it (which includes a desire to obey God).

How or when Abraham was saved is not at issue. Abraham was never commanded to be baptized. People keep confusing the NT command to be baptized for the remission of sins with circumcision and the Mosaic Law.

It most certainly is an issue. Abraham was saved by faith.

Does the command to be baptized exist in the NT?

If it does, then what is the reason for baptism as given in the NT?

Keep in mind there are different kinds of baptisms. We are baptized into Christ and the Holy Spirit at the moment of faith. Baptism in water is a sign of our salvation.

It the command and the reason exist, why do so many have such a hard time complying with the command?

These are the questions to be answered.

I don't think the issue here is that people have a hard time complying with the command to be baptized. I know very few who do have a hard time with it. Every believer I know has been baptized.

The issue here is that you believe one must be baptized in water in order to be saved or to complete salvation, however you may put it.

Show scripture saying we are justified, saved, anything by "faith alone", or "faith only".

I posted them above, and others have posted other passages. Why do you ignore them?

Of all the conditions of salvation in the NT, only two are described as works: Faith and repentance. Can one be saved without these?

Faith is not a work. Faith and repentance come at the same time; repentance is turning away from sin and toward Christ. If one has faith in Christ, one turns away from sin and his former life to Christ and the new life in Christ. Faith is not a work.


Rom 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law

Eph 2:
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Gal 2:16
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified

Gal 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Gal 3:26
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.


BTM, if you think you are saved by faith plus works, then you have something to boast about. That would be contrary to Eph. 2:8, 9.

 

[Darron Steele]

Darron, why are you addressing me?

Because BTM cited the "obedience" stuff to you first. I expected you to respond. I wanted to give you relevant information for your reply and anyone else's reply.

If I somehow offended you, sorry.

 

[Marcia]

Because BTM cited the "obedience" stuff to you first. I expected you to respond. I wanted to give you relevant information for your reply and anyone else's reply.

If I somehow offended you, sorry.

No, you didn't offend me. I just didn't understand what you were saying. I know what he's saying.

Let BTM make his own case (which he hasn't). From what I see, he is givng a case for obedience in being baptized as a condition for salvation. Am I missing something in my responses to him?

 

[Darron Steele]

No, you didn't offend me. I just didn't understand what you were saying. I know what he's saying.

Let BTM make his own case (which he hasn't). From what I see, he is givng a case for obedience in being baptized as a condition for salvation. Am I missing something in my responses to him?

You are possibly getting close to his point.

In Church of Christ circles, the term "obey the Gospel" means `be baptized by immersion.'

If a person has not been baptized by immersion, then `S/he has not obeyed the Gospel.'

Probably his point is that if you believe that obedience is necessary to be saved, you should believe in works-based salvation. You should therefore believe that a completed baptism is necessary to be saved. I have seen this argument time and again, and predict that this is where he is going. He is free to make his own argument if it is different.

What I wrote is about a different subject.

I spent my first half-decade as a Christian in a Baptist congregation. In the time since, I have served in ministry with Baptists as occasion allows. I know how "obedience" is understood. I also understand it from the Scriptures I cited: to be "obedient" is an attitude within Scripturally-approved "faith."

I also spent 9 months in a militant vocal-only Church of Christ. I also spent two years in other Churches of Christ. I still `moonlight' at one because for reasons I do not fully understand, I still have a fondness for them. I read literature of the Churches of Christ and things their polemicists write. I know what it is common for them see when they see "obey" in Scripture: they see it as works which are separate from and after "faith."

The understandings differ. It causes confusion.

The groups that understand what Scripture means regarding "obey"/"obedience" in regards to salvation often are not aware of the usual Churches of Christ view which separates "faith" and "obedience."

Church of Christ polemicists often have a hard time seeing how other Christians teach that salvation is by faith alone and yet still believe God requires obedience.

I was trying to avoid some of the things that happen during miscommunications due to differing definitions of a very important word.

 

[Marcia]

Thanks, Darron. He still needs to make his case from scripture no matter how he or the Church of Christ understands or misunderstands obedience.

I think the Church of Christ will interpret words/passages in the Bible in the way that fits their teaching, rather than derive their teaching from the Bible.

So what do you mean that you "moonlight" at a Church of Christ?

 

[Darron Steele]

...

So what do you mean that you "moonlight" at a Church of Christ?

My current congregation only meets on Sunday mornings. My congregation is in the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ.

The Church of Christ I "moonlight" at has evening services. Although I have not been able to go for the past several weeks, I like to go there during their evening services.

There is a reason I used "current congregation" and it not that I `church hop.' I am getting married and expecting to relocate, my fiancee and I are planning to transition to another Disciples congregation closer to the area we plan to live.

 

[Amy.G]

Has this been posted?


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Is it possible to receive the Holy Spirit and not be saved?

It is obvious Cornelius was a saved, born again man before he was baptized.

 

[BTM]

Has this been posted?

Act 10:44 - Act 10:48

Is it possible to receive the Holy Spirit and not be saved?

It is obvious Cornelius was a saved, born again man before he was baptized. (Amy, I rearranged your post a little to save space - BTM. No harm intended.)

Since Darron Steele has already revealed my innermost thoughts about the Bible, I guess I can move on to the latest post. Thanks for saving me some time, Darron, you're the king.

Not in the present discussion, no, Acts 10:44-48 has not been addressed. Glad you brought it up.

In Acts 10 we have the first Gentile converts to Christ. In Acts 10 we have an account of the events that took place at Cornelius' house. Let it be understood, however, that Acts 10 is not a chronological account. I the next chapter there is one, though. Here it is.

Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Notice the words "as I began to speak". Is it just me, or does that indicate the beginning of Peters' discourse? I don't think too many would say that indicates the end of his speech, so let's see what Peter said at the beginning of his speech. Here's the whole thing.

Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Act 10:36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
Act 10:37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Act 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Nine verses. If we divide that three ways, the first three verses might qualify as the "beginning". For the sake of saving space, go back and read the first three verses of Peter's words. Anything in there about the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

Here's the point: if Cornelius and Co. were saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them, then they were saved before they had heard the gospel, before they could have faith by which to be saved. You can't have faith without hearing the word (Rom 10:17).

 

[Amy.G]

Here's the point: if Cornelius and Co. were saved when the Holy Spirit fell on them, then they were saved before they had heard the gospel, before they could have faith by which to be saved. You can't have faith without hearing the word (Rom 10:17).

But according to Acts 10, Peter did give them the gospel. It's right there in black and white.

What you seem to be saying (because you did not actually answer my question) is that Cornelius was not saved, even though he was indwelled with the Holy Spirit. He had the Holy Ghost, scripture says so, but you say he was not saved yet because he was not baptized.
So unsaved people can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit???

 

[Marcia]

My current congregation only meets on Sunday mornings. My congregation is in the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ.

The Church of Christ I "moonlight" at has evening services. Although I have not been able to go for the past several weeks, I like to go there during their evening services.

There is a reason I used "current congregation" and it not that I `church hop.' I am getting married and expecting to relocate, my fiancee and I are planning to transition to another Disciples congregation closer to the area we plan to live.

So doesn't the Disciples of Christ Church also teach that one must be baptized to be saved?

They came out of the same movement as the Church of Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

If we go back just a few verses in Romans to 3:28, we see that the works Paul was speaking of were "works of the law". The letter to the Romans begins and ends promoting the idea of obedience.

Rom 1:5 - By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:26 - But now is made manifest, and by the scriptuyres of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Yes, to faith and obedience. But what is this faith?

Paul uses Abraham as an example of being justified apart from the Law. James uses Abraham to show that we must do what God says. They were not opposed to each other. They were back to back, fighting against two different false doctrines.

Again, for both Jews and Gentiles, being right with God, is on the basis of faith (3:30).

Paul spent alot of time undoing the damage done by Judaizers. They were teaching that the Gentile converts pretty much had to become Jews in order to be saved (be circumsized & keep the Law). Paul showed that Abraham was justified by his faith in God before the Law ever existed.

No, that's the problem in Galatians but not Romans.

Romans is a presentation of the gospel.

Notice how Paul argues his point in 4:9-11, so whether you're Jew or Gentile, you're justified by Abrahamic faith.

James seems to have been giving an inspired kick in the pants to Christians who thought that since they had obeyed the gospel, they didn't have to do anything else. James used Abraham as an example of being justified by obeying God's commands. He shows how faith is incomplete, ineffective, dead apart from corresponding works. He shows how works complete, make effective, give life to faith.

James is speaking about Christians whose lives were betraying their confessed faith (2:14).

James and Paul are at different points on the issue of Justification: Paul speaks of the justification of a person, while James speaks of the justification of a person's professed faith.

 

[Darron Steele]

So doesn't the Disciples of Christ Church also teach that one must be baptized to be saved?

They came out of the same movement as the Church of Christ.

For the second remark, yes, the latter split from the former in two stages. The militantly vocal-only Churches of Christ finalized a split in 1906. The Independent Christian churches/Churches of Christ began fizzling away in 1968.

As for the former question, absolutely not. Salvation is by faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God, our Lord and Savior. Our congregations accept into membership any Christians baptized the Bible way or those who have undergone rites called "baptism" in other denominations. Our congregations partner in fellowship and service with congregations of other Christian denominations that do not normally baptize the Bible way. We know that Scripture teaches immersion of believers, but we accept Scripture's teaching that we cannot be factious against other Christians -- this includes those who think other procedures are valid.

The idea that salvation is granted only to those who have gotten themselves baptized properly is actually a notion that appeared as the Restoration started going sour. It was one of the specific factors that did most to damage the Restoration.

 

[Amy.G]

What you seem to be saying (because you did not actually answer my question) is that Cornelius was not saved, even though he was indwelled with the Holy Spirit. He had the Holy Ghost, scripture says so, but you say he was not saved yet because he was not baptized.
So unsaved people can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit???

Still waiting for an answer......

 

[Darron Steele]

Amy G.: You are spot on.

Peter had a big long discourse I guess he intended to get into. That is what he implies at "as I began to speak" (NKJV) in Acts 11:15.

Now, back to Acts 10, we see that the Lord had other plans.

Act 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35 but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is acceptable to him.
Act 10:36 The word which he sent unto the children of Israel, preaching good tidings of peace by Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all.) -
Act 10:37 that saying ye yourselves know, which was published throughout all Judaea, beginning from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
Act 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
Act 10:41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
Act 10:42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that |were listening to| the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid the water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then | they asked him to stay on for a few days. (ASV|ESV|ASV|NASB|ASV|NASB)​

Here is what stands out to me:

Act 10:43 To him bear all the prophets witness, that through his name every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that |were listening to| the word.

First, Peter made clear regarding Jesus Christ that "everyone that believeth on him receives remission of sins." His audience was listening receptively, and so when this was said, they believed, and God sent the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 15:8-9, Peter reported about this “And God, who knoweth the heart, |gave them evidence|, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us; and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (ASV|NBV|ASV). When they believed at Acts 10:43-4, God sent the Holy Spirit, cleansed the hearts of the believers for their faith, and testified to the unexpecting Jews that these were saved believers.

Further, it was after Peter saw that these people were now Christians that he called for baptism. In Matthew 28:19-20a Jesus Christ said “make disciples of all the nations|. Baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach them to obey everything that I have taught you” (NASB|NCV). Per Acts 11:26, “Christians” is a rename of “disciples.” Jesus Christ said regarding "disciples" that we should "baptize them" meaning that we baptize Christians -- not unbelievers. Peter followed this; when he realized that these people were now Christians, he called for their prompt baptism.

In bringing up Acts 10 again, you were spot on. Acts 10 has actually been brought up earlier, but it was a while back. Acts 10:43 makes clear regarding Jesus Christ that "everyone that believeth on him receives remission of sins" as quoted above. There are people who wrongly teach that if someone who "believeth on him" fails to get properly baptized, s/he will not get remission of sins. However, according to Scripture, there is no way that someone who "believeth on him" does not receive "remission of sins."