Is believing/faith a work ?

[AustinC]

Your dishonesty continues. That's not what I said in post #69 and you know it.

Let's be honest.
It is your incapacity to explain your theology and answer clarifying questions that is the problem. Asking a question is not dishonest (I have asked clarifying questions.) You, have not clarified your theology and instead attack me, the one who has asked for clarification.
Now, will you or will you not clarify your statement of temporal and eternal salvation?

 

[kyredneck]

Now, will you or will you not clarify your statement of temporal and eternal salvation?

The dialog goes as follows (before you started your intentional juvenile misrepresentations):

So do you understand believing to be the work of a man to do to get saved ? Yes or no

For gospel salvation, yes. For eternal salvation, no.

This makes no sense to me. You seem to be teaching two salvations.

No. Two aspects of one salvation, temporal and eternal.

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Gospel/temporal aspect of our salvation in which we are active and exercise faith:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Jn 3

Eternal aspect of our salvation in which we are passive and our faith has zilch to do with:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 3

 

[DaveXR650]

If it's not Biblical you should get a mind of your own and cease spouting it.

Justification by faith alone is biblical. You see a verse that says that you are justified by faith, then one that says you are not justified by works, then one that says you are saved by grace through faith and not by works - guess what. A pattern begins to emerge - you are justified by faith alone. Add to this the fact that the Catholics teach a whole system and officially curse anyone who claims justification is by faith alone and you begin to realize that there are very good and sound reasons to teach that justification is by faith alone. A lot of you guys on here have nothing but contempt for anything written or taught in the past. Especially if the teacher was a Calvinist. You haven't really read the stuff, but you have such an ego that you have no problem pushing some bizarre, half baked, cafeteria theology that is largely made up on your own.

The verses that suggest justification by works are explained in protestant theology in several ways. There is the idea that there is a "justification" before men. Not the same as when you are saved but a way of showing proof at the judgement before men and God that you were truly saved. There is the fact as all the Puritans and Luther taught that if a person has faith in Christ and lives for a time on earth after that - he will for sure and indeed must do works and pursue holiness. So works are involved in salvation taken as a whole. It is helpful to read the explanation of these things or hear a preacher who actually teaches go over them. Or you can stumble around on your own picking a verse here and there.

 

[kyredneck]

Justification by faith alone is biblical.

No. Justification by faith alone is ANTI-biblical:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

You see a verse that says that you are justified by faith, then one that says you are not justified by works,

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

How do you harmonize these? Was Paul going senile?

 

[Brightfame52]

Any act of obedience to Gods command is a work, a good work. Believing on Christ is a commandment of God, so therefore a good work 1 Jn 3:23

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Acts 16:31

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The word believe here is the greek word pisteuō and in this instance its an imperative which means:

The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order and authority of the one commanding. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers.

So believing here would be a good work performed by the Jailor if he obeyed the imperative !

And if his act of obeying this command caused God to save him, then he was saved because of a good work he performed !

 

[Brightfame52]

For gospel salvation, yes. For eternal salvation, no.

That sounds like works to me. I believe the scripture teaches all of salvation is of God, no phase of it is conditioned on mans work.

 

[kyredneck]

That sounds like works to me.

I probably won't sleep over eight hours tonight worrying about that.

It's not works, it's a response, as in Abba Father! Romans 8:15

 

[DaveXR650]

No. Justification by faith alone is ANTI-biblical:

We'll just have to disagree. At least you say what you mean and I appreciate that, really.

13 …the doers of the law shall be justified...Ro 2

20 ...by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified... Ro 3

How do you harmonize these? Was Paul going senile?

No. Romans 2: 12 clearly states that those who have the law and sin are no better off than those who never had the law but sin also. You can't jump in with verse 13. That verse is concluding the thought in verse 12. Verse 13 is showing how valueless it is to hear the law and not do it. But does anyone do it? The third chapter goes on to conclude as in 3:10, that none of us have kept it. This is a perfect example why you can't go through the Bible picking verses out like you would go through the line at a cafeteria. Some of you guys actual ridicule systematic theology. It can be very useful to help a Bible student from getting off track. And even worse, you make it difficult to discuss things because it takes 20 posts to figure out where you're coming from.

Look, Romans 3:20 above - you didn't even use the whole verse. "For by the law is the knowledge of sin". If you have a working knowledge of systemic theology, you know right away that this is the prime reason for the law. And I'm not just talking about some high brow theology. This stuff was taught by J. Vernon McGee in his through the bible radio program, as well as plenty of others.

 

[kyredneck]

The verses that suggest justification by works are explained in protestant theology in several ways. There is the idea that there is a "justification" before men. Not the same as when you are saved but a way of showing proof at the judgement before men and God that you were truly saved.

If you're referring to the works that James was talking about in his epistle:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the same works we're all going to be judged by.

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, that's what I'm referring to. There is a "justification" before men that God puts a high priority on and it's discussed in James. God doesn't need our works, but men do, both because of the direct benefit they get from them but because they can only see the truth of a transforming gospel through the actions of us. They can't read our minds. You may know people who claim to have faith but live lives that don't show it at all. You know how disgusting it is and how harmful it is to our fellow men who are watching them. If you are a Baptist I'm sure you have heard the old saying "if you were to go on trial for being a Christian would there be enough evidence to convict you". We hope so and we say we this would justify our lives before men. But it's not meant to be the same as when God justifies us from sin because of Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

No. Romans 2: 12 clearly states that those who have the law and sin are no better off than those who never had the law but sin also. You can't jump in with verse 13.

I didn't just 'jump in' with v 13. The context of God rendering to each of us 'according to' our works:

Eternal life for 'patience in well-doing' Romans 2:7

Glory and honor and peace for 'working good' Romans 2:10

Justification for 'doing the law' Romans 2:13

If being a 'doer of the law' stoves you up see Romans 13:8-10 & Matthew 7:12 for the gist of the term. Also take note, those 'doing the law' in v13 do it 'by nature' v14, showing a regenerate heart with the law supernaturally written upon it v 15, i.e., the works are wrought in God, not man.

 

[kyredneck]

There is a "justification" before men

I think you missed something in my post. That justification is not before men but before Christ:

The 'works' to which James is referring:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

The just:

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

The unjust:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

 

[DaveXR650]

I think you missed something in my post. That justification is not before men but before Christ:

I may have misunderstood what you meant. I was too interested in explaining what I think it means. Look, what you are saying is close to what most Mennonite or modern Anabaptist groups teach. Also Rome. Richard Baxter, the Puritan, at least for a while taught that as a Christian you were put under a new law because of Christs death that had less exact requirements and demand for perfection but that "sincere obedience" was still a requirement. The Calvinistic Puritans taught that good works came not under justification but under sanctification and because you cannot tear the two apart you could say that good works were essential to salvation, in that sense. I think the value you place on good works is important. I just don't think it goes under justification - but as I said, that view is not the only view.

 

[kyredneck]

Look, what you are saying is close to what most Mennonite or modern Anabaptist groups teach.

Lol, no, what I am saying is exactly what Christ and Paul and James taught, i.e., straight from the scriptures, I've cited no extra-biblical sources.

But I do appreciate your attitude, Dave. It's pleasant conversing with you.

 

[AustinC]

The dialog goes as follows (before you started your intentional juvenile misrepresentations):








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Gospel/temporal aspect of our salvation in which we are active and exercise faith:
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Jn 3

Eternal aspect of our salvation in which we are passive and our faith has zilch to do with:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 3

Did you deduce this just from these two verses?
May I add these verses?
Hebrews 9:11-12,15-17,24,27-28

So Christ has now become the High Priest over all the good things that have come. He has entered that greater, more perfect Tabernacle in heaven, which was not made by human hands and is not part of this created world.

With his own blood—not the blood of goats and calves—he entered the Most Holy Place once for all time and secured our redemption forever. That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant. Now when someone leaves a will, it is necessary to prove that the person who made it is dead. The will goes into effect only after the person’s death. While the person who made it is still alive, the will cannot be put into effect.

For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.

And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment, so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.

You see, both your verses express the covenant (will) established by Jesus, with the Father, for us who are the adopted children of God. That reception you are stating as a work of humans is in truth a work of Jesus, written into the covenant on our behalf.
Hebrews 8:9-12

This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and led them out of the land of Egypt. They did not remain faithful to my covenant, so I turned my back on them, says the Lord. But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already. And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”

 

[DaveXR650]

But I do appreciate your attitude, Dave. It's pleasant conversing with you.

Thank you sir. And Merry Christmas!

 

[kyredneck]

Did you deduce this just from these two verses?

Oh, no, there's a myriad of verses that differentiate between the two aspects of our salvation. In the one aspect we are active and responsible, in the other we are totally passive.

May I add these verses?

Have at it.

 

[kyredneck]

Thank you sir. And Merry Christmas!

...back at you Brother.

 

[AustinC]

Oh, no, there's a myriad of verses that differentiate between the two aspects of our salvation. In the one aspect we are active and responsible, in the other we are totally passive.



Have at it.

Me thinks you have created a dual action of your own making.

 

[Brightfame52]

Mans religion will tell you that Salvation/Justification is a recompense for mans act of believing or faith. Thats Salvation by works. They're telling us that Justification before God is premise on mans action or deed of faith/believing and not Christ alone in His Person and Work!64