Is Calvinism a False Doctrine?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

2serve:
"if he himself had predistinated them to sin."

GE
Who in this universe has claimed that? God predestinates - contrary all human merit - to salvation from sin. Get that right first before you try to argue another words against the will of God!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP:
"I was addressing the notion of the state we are born into, not the state we reside in."

GE
Everyone shall reside in his state he was born in until such time as God may will to change the state he was born in.

 

[2serve]

God predestinates - contrary all human merit - to salvation from sin.

Yet again I challenge you, nay I beseech you, to to apply one single solitary scrap of Bible to this statement. I'm ok with this being your OPPINION but there is no Bible (IN CONTEXT) to support it.
That is simply something that some teacher or preacher or professor told you and you are simply regurgetating it.
Without contention, in brotherly love, I emplore you to search the scriptures on this point.

I am truly willing to believe this doctrine, if you can show me how it lines up with the scriptures but you must begin by addressing the verses that I listed, to start with.
Realize that before you go into some Greek and Hebrew disertation, the Bible says what it says and any explanation that begins with a doctrinal preconception is a falicy.
Let us enter into doctrine by way of the Bible rather than entering into the Bible by way of doctrine.

 

[DHK]

HP:

GE
You understand the Truth, yet you discard it - because you are self-conceited; that's all.

You have no choice but to sin while you are in the state you were born in, o man, understand! Only God is able to create in you a new will to newly choose for God and to choose God --- if He will! Because He is Sovereign, and we, rebels! -but for His Grace if He will!

GE, think carefully about this.
At one time this board (paticularly this forum) was open to atheists, evolutionists, the RCC, different cults, etc. Of course many of them were not saved. At that time we had many people posting, both saved and unsaved alike. I responded to them, and they to me.

I responded of my own free will. No one forced me to. I did it willingly. My answers were thought out just as they are now.

Those that were unsaved that answered my posts also answered of their own free will. They took the time to freely think of their own volition and post those things which they reasoned of their own mind. No one forced them to hit that "reply" button. They did it of their own free will.

Both saved and unsaved have free will. They make choices all the time of their own will. Some day that unsaved person will come to the place in his life where he, of his own will, must make a choice whether to receive Christ or reject him. It is a decision that he makes. No one is going to force him to do it. He will not be turned into a robot for God, forced into Christianity. That is Islam, not Christianity. It sounds very much like you equate the conversion of a Christian to Islam--forced conversion. I won't have any part of such "Christianity."

 

[BobRyan]

HP:
"If we are born sinners, we had no choice but to sin."

GE
You understand the Truth, yet you discard it - because you are self-conceited; that's all.

You have no choice but to sin while you are in the state you were born in, o man, understand! Only God is able to create in you a new will to newly choose for God and to choose God --- if He will! Because He is Sovereign, and we, rebels! -but for His Grace if He will!

GE you seem to have an insult for every thread --

Do you have a library of them?

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not sure in what universe that made sense, but it wasn't this one.

1.) No he would not. Not if he himself had predistinated them to sin. In fact Your supposition makes him holily unjust and (the Author of sin)
2.) I challenge you to put scripture with that supposition. (there being a noticable lack thereof.)
3.) There are only 2 verses in the entire Bible that say Predestinate Rom.8:29&30which IN CONTEXT are talking about sanctification, and 2 that say Predestinated Eph. 1:5&11 both of which IN CONTEXT speak to the method of Salvation and not the fashist forcing of Salvation.
4.) If somewhere in here I have misunderstood the scriptures then I need some guidance in the understanding of those afore mentioned verses(from my posting that you quoted) which you have so conveniently failed to address in your posting.

If we bring our Doctrine to the Bible we will almost if not always be wrong, But rather let us come to the Bible empty handed and just believe what God said.

Good points all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

2serve:
"any explanation that begins with a doctrinal preconception is a falicy."

GE
Might this not to your own a-priori position apply as well -- think of that!?

Then before I go to the Scriptures, let me explain to you my understanding of the understanding of the Scriptures - I have before on this forum said it many times: I don't and cannot understand the Scriptures on my own. I you can, then good for you. But it is so easy to rest assured in one's own untested conclusions. Therefore I will not apologise for the fact I 'needed some guidance' and was lucky enough to have found it from the best of the best, from men like Luther, who, when he had to answer for his faith at Worms maintained his 'theology' on two things: The Scriptures, and, good sense. Now I can add a third : my dependence on others like Luther. And the list is LONG! That, even before I have gone to a single Scripture. For that, was exactly the GREATEST fear of the whore-church Rome, and seems to be your greatest fear as well.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"I responded of my own free will. No one forced me to. I did it willingly. My answers were thought out just as they are now"

GE
How, as what, as who, do you respond like this, DHK? You, as the DHK you now are; not as whoever you were before you became DHK on this forum. You, as a reborn, recreated person who had had received your ability to so will and choose. This is not whoever you used to be before Christ made Himself known to you. Saul, before, willingly according to his OLD man, killed the People of Christ; Paul, afterwards, fought the good fight for the People of Christ --- willingly; according to his NEW nature.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

DHK:
"Both saved and unsaved have free will."

GE
Sure! There's no such thing as a will as isn't free. I agree! That means no will as is able to act against itself. Now Paul expressly will tell you that what he wills NOT, that he finds himself doing! and the other way round.

Of 'necessity' as someone else has argued. H2 plus O gives you water. It's a law of nature. No will can disobey its own FREE promptings; that's why you were free, and the atheists were free in their propagation of their UNbelief. It is said of the atheist he with his chin in the air - PROUDLY, which is freely - says there is no God; while you, as a Christian - with deepest conviction of your own UNworthiness - will confess your faith in God in Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

2serve:
"I challenge you to put scripture with that supposition. (there being a noticable lack thereof.)"

GE
Ag, friend, spare yourself the embarrasment!
This what you have here said, reveals your - not my - lack of knowledge.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I have noticed most noticeable in all of the MANY books of the free-willers I have STUDIED is their arrogance and pride. They always - without exception - treat the 'Calvinist' as were he retarded. The very same 'methodolgy' of him who says there is no God.

Another 'insult'? If anyone finds himself behind the door, then insult be it!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I was of the opinion that personal attacks were against the rules and policies of this board. Why the apparent blind eye by the moderator(s) concerning GE’s remarks?

 

[BobRyan]

In answer to the title of the thread -- the answer from the Bible is "YES"!

But this is with the qualification that we are primarily speaking of error that we know today as 4 and 5 point Calvinism.

Limited Atonement (Limited Love, Limited Grace) --is a false doctrine. (Just means it is wrong).
Irrisistible Grace (mind-zap rather than "Whosoever will") -- is a false doctrine.
Unconditional election (IF by that we are speaking of the arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7) -- then it too is wrong.

But some flavors of Calvinism also argues in favor of Perseverance -- and that is correct.
They all argue for the depravity of the sinful nature - and that is correct.
They all argue for the sovereignty of God -- and that is Correct.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[2serve]

In answer to the title of the thread -- the answer from the Bible is "YES"!

But this is with the qualification that we are primarily speaking of error that we know today as 4 and 5 point Calvinism.

Limited Atonement (Limited Love, Limited Grace) --is a false doctrine. (Just means it is wrong).
Irrisistible Grace (mind-zap rather than "Whosoever will") -- is a false doctrine.
Unconditional election (IF by that we are speaking of the arbitrary selection of the FEW in Matt 7) -- then it too is wrong.

But some flavors of Calvinism also argues in favor of Perseverance -- and that is correct.
They all argue for the depravity of the sinful nature - and that is correct.
They all argue for the sovereignty of God -- and that is Correct.

in Christ,

Bob

I almost totally agree.
1.) T - says that Man is totally depraved (I agree); so much so that he can't even make the decision to recieve salvation(I couldn't disagree more) "to as many as recieved him to them gave he power to become the sons of God."(awful lot of action verbs on the part of man.)
2.) U - I totally agree w/BR
3.) L - I totally agree w/BR
4.) I - I totally agree w/BR
5.) P- Perseverance of the saints ( I disagree) the saints don't persevere but rather the Bible says that we are kept by his power, not our own.

The bottom line is that the whole TULIP theory hinges on one doctrine and that is the doctrine of predestination to salvation and the Word of God says that nowhere, not one single time.

 

[gb93433]

I have noticed most noticeable in all of the MANY books of the free-willers I have STUDIED is their arrogance and pride. They always - without exception - treat the 'Calvinist' as were he retarded. The very same 'methodolgy' of him who says there is no God.

Another 'insult'? If anyone finds himself behind the door, then insult be it!

I don't happen to agree with either one. Over the years I have noticed that very few "Calvinists" even know why Paul actually dealt with election outside of their intellectual discussion. The reason he dealt with it was not at all to provide intellectual discussion.

 

[DHK]

DHK:
"I responded of my own free will. No one forced me to. I did it willingly. My answers were thought out just as they are now"

GE
How, as what, as who, do you respond like this, DHK? You, as the DHK you now are; not as whoever you were before you became DHK on this forum. You, as a reborn, recreated person who had had received your ability to so will and choose. This is not whoever you used to be before Christ made Himself known to you. Saul, before, willingly according to his OLD man, killed the People of Christ; Paul, afterwards, fought the good fight for the People of Christ --- willingly; according to his NEW nature.

Tell me: Who forced Paul to put Christians into prison? Who made the decision? He was on the way to get letters from the High Priest. Who was forcing him to do that? Was that of his own decision or of someone else's decision? Did Paul of his own zeal and own free will decide to persecute Christians, or did someone force him to do it? Was he a robot or not? Who programmed him? Who took away his free will that he became a robot not knowing right from wrong? Even the Bible teaches that he knew right from wrong and could decide for himself (Romans 2:14,15). Our entire justice is based on that very concept. If Calvinism is true why not just do away with our justice system. It is no longer needed. Man cannot decide anything for himself anyway.

 

[gb93433]

Even the Bible teaches that he knew right from wrong and could decide for himself (Romans 2:14,15). Our entire justice is based on that very concept. If Calvinism is true why not just do away with our justice system. It is no longer needed. Man cannot decide anything for himself anyway.

That is a good point. Can you imagine a man being tried for murder and telling the court that God made him do it?

 

[Rippon]

Get Off your Kick

DHK , you have apparently been programmed to deliver robotic replies in your deconstruction of a strawman that you call Calvinism .

 

[webdog]

...and rippon has been programmed to always bring this up without refuting it scripturally.

 

[DHK]

DHK , you have apparently been programmed to deliver robotic replies in your deconstruction of a strawman that you call Calvinism .

I have asked honest questions. Can you give honest and Scriptural answers? I am waiting.