Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[DHK]

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

This is the answer that Paul gave to those who were using grace as an excuse to sin, that is--antinomianism.

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

"In the same way..." First Paul sets forth principles. He sets forth our position in Christ. But our position is different than what we must practice. Thus in this verse, verse 11, the practical comes to the forefront. "In this way" Count, reckon, yield...yourselves to be dead to sin.
This is something to be done every day. It is not positional. It is practical.
It is what one does when they yield their lives to the Holy Spirit, deny themselves, flee the devil, etc. The Christian life is not lived in a vacuum. It is a battle to be carried out every day, and every day the flesh must be put to death.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

[Rom. 6:1-14]

Again, the commands in this portion are to be repeated over and over again--each day, every day. Why? Because the body is not dead. We are not dead to sin, but very much alive to it. The old man still lives.
Thus the command:
Do not let sin reign in your mortal body. It is possible to let sin reign in your mortal body, otherwise Paul wouldn't write what he just wrote. He commands the believer not to allow sin to reign.
"Offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness..."
Another command that is to be carried out daily. A believer is not automatically dead to sin.
Paul said "I die daily." 1Cor.15:31.

No where are we expected to live worldly as the world lives.

Of course not. God doesn't expect any Christian to live a worldly life.
In fact he doesn't expect any human to be a terrorist either. That is not his will. But that doesn't mean it won't happen. Christians choose to live worldly lives. They are all around us. This is one of the greatest plagues that Christianity has to deal with today--worldliness; lack of holiness.

We are no longer in the realm of sin and death, but righteousness and life.

It is too bad believers don't live like it. Their "righteousness" doesn't look any better than the righteousness of the Pharisees. Again there is positional righteousness and practical righteousness which is worked out in progressive sanctification.
Nevertheless, because we all grow at a different rate we cannot judge those who jump all over the Corinthians whom Paul could not feed meat. He still had to feed them milk, and for that reason they were carnal Christians. But some here say Paul was wrong, and they are actually unsaved. (1Cor.3:1-5).

The Christian that lives in the crack house is a deceived folk, I am afraid. The Christian who continually fornicates with others is deceived, too. If someone comes to Christ and you do not see a change made in their life, there has been no change made.

All Christians change, eventually. Not all Christians have an experience like the Apostle Paul, which Lordship Salvation teaches. We grow at different rates, some more gradually then others.

Apostle John wrote it best when he wrote See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure.

Wonderful scripture.

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

This epistle is written so that believers can answer the question: "How do I know if I am saved?" What assurances do I have? John is writing with those questions in mind.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

[1 John 3:1-10]

Right, when I look at what John writes and examine the principles he has written with my own life I can have the assurance that I am saved. They are not principles to judge others, but rather to judge one's own self.

People are known by their fruits, by their works. Wicked fruits, wicked works, means wicked hearts.

Wicked 10% of the time; 20% of the time; 40% 60%? 100%
Or is it 0%? Sinless perfection. What exactly do you mean?
We all have wicked works. We all sin. We all will be judged for them someday at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This is the answer that Paul gave to those who were using grace as an excuse to sin, that is--antinomianism.

We are commanded to live consecrated lives, mon ami. We are no longer under sin's realm, but live unto God. Paul is laying out that our walks and talks are in accord with who is our Master/master.

"In the same way..." First Paul sets forth principles. He sets forth our position in Christ. But our position is different than what we must practice. Thus in this verse, verse 11, the practical comes to the forefront. "In this way" Count, reckon, yield...yourselves to be dead to sin.
This is something to be done every day. It is not positional. It is practical.
It is what one does when they yield their lives to the Holy Spirit, deny themselves, flee the devil, etc. The Christian life is not lived in a vacuum. It is a battle to be carried out every day, and every day the flesh must be put to death.

Correct. Our deeds tell others who we are really serving. Look, any of us, if someone took a photo of us at a certain time, and then blew it up upon a billboard for all to see, they would draw the conclusion that we are false believers. We sin, and at any time, people could get the view that we are false believers. But if that 'one time photo' is indicative of our lifestyle, that we are living in sin, then they would draw the same conclusion. But, yes, we do sin. But we do not live in sin.

Again, the commands in this portion are to be repeated over and over again--each day, every day. Why? Because the body is not dead. We are not dead to sin, but very much alive to it. The old man still lives.
Thus the command:
Do not let sin reign in your mortal body. It is possible to let sin reign in your mortal body, otherwise Paul wouldn't write what he just wrote. He commands the believer not to allow sin to reign.
"Offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness..."
Another command that is to be carried out daily. A believer is not automatically dead to sin.
Paul said "I die daily." 1Cor.15:31.

The old self is crucified. It is like smoking. I have not smoked a cigarette, cigar, pipe in over nine years. Yet, there are times I want one sooooo bad I could eat it if it was lit on both ends...not the pipe, though...too tough. :laugh: So, why is it like that? As the old saying goes...'bad habits are hard to break.' Our bodies are still saturated in sin and remain so until we are changed into a body fashioned like Jesus' most glorious body. The old self was crucified, but the fleshly man was not. The old self is the soul of man, not the physical body. As Paul wrote For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—[Rom. 6:6] The soul is what rules the flesh. When the soul and flesh were both fallen, they were in an accord with each other. However, after the old man, old self, was crucified, a new man came into being and now rules the fleshly body. When the flesh wants its way, the new man brings him under subjection, not allowing him to do whatsoever he pleases.

Of course not. God doesn't expect any Christian to live a worldly life.

:thumbsup: Yes.

In fact he doesn't expect any human to be a terrorist either. That is not his will. But that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Wickedness does happen, on that I agree.

Christians choose to live worldly lives.

Wrong. False converts do, but not truly converted Christians.

They are all around us.

False converts fill many a pew. Some are not obvious, some are. Look at the ilks of John Hagee, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, et al. They are full of fleshly false converts who want nothing from God but a hand out from their horrible 'name it, claim it and blab it, grab it' doctrine.

This is one of the greatest plagues that Christianity has to deal with today--worldliness; lack of holiness.

Churches are plagued by this because it is being taught behind many pulpits, Monsieur. If preachers quit preaching this vile doctrine, churches would not be plagued by it.

It is too bad believers don't live like it. Their "righteousness" doesn't look any better than the righteousness of the Pharisees. Again there is positional righteousness and practical righteousness which is worked out in progressive sanctification.

These are the characteristics of false converts, Monsieur, and not true Christians.

Nevertheless, because we all grow at a different rate we cannot judge those who jump all over the Corinthians whom Paul could not feed meat. He still had to feed them milk, and for that reason they were carnal Christians. But some here say Paul was wrong, and they are actually unsaved. (1Cor.3:1-5).

All I am saying that we all sin, yes. Never stated anything to the contrary, mon ami. However, to say to someone who is living in a crack house shooting up, smoking crack, living a life of debauchery that they are Christians is horrible. Our lives are a reflection of who we are living for.

All Christians change, eventually.

Yes. This is called salvation, conversion, regeneration.

Not all Christians have an experience like the Apostle Paul, which Lordship Salvation teaches.

Huh? Whaaaa? Who said that in this thread, Monsieur? Please offer proof of such an outlandish claim.

We grow at different rates, some more gradually then others.

Yes. Agree.

Wonderful scripture.

Hallelujah.

This epistle is written so that believers can answer the question: "How do I know if I am saved?" What assurances do I have? John is writing with those questions in mind.

This epistle was written to explain that Christians, truly converted, blood-bought Christians, will not continue sinning. His seed is with them and they can not continue sinning. That is as plain as it gets. There is an old saying 'Plain talk is easily understood.' That is as plain a saying in 1 John 3 as there is.

Right, when I look at what John writes and examine the principles he has written with my own life I can have the assurance that I am saved. They are not principles to judge others, but rather to judge one's own self.

When one sins, they repent, because God's seed is there. That is the thought John was conveying.

Wicked 10% of the time; 20% of the time; 40% 60%? 100%
Or is it 0%? Sinless perfection. What exactly do you mean?
We all have wicked works. We all sin. We all will be judged for them someday at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

As I previously stated, a 'one time photo' in our life could make us all look like false converts. We all sin, and will continue to sin until we die. But we do not dwell in sin's realm any more. The new man has taken over and when we sin, he, through the workings of God's Spirit, brings the flesh back under subjection. If the flesh is not brought under subjection and continues to live like it did before they were 'converted', there was not a change made, Monsieur.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is something to be done every day.

Yes.

It is not positional. It is practical.

No! The believer has died to sin It's all over Paul's letters. Read Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:3. This is what baptism signifies: dying to the old life and rising to the new. What remains, not in us, but in our mortal bodies, is a relic of sin which keeps bringing us down. Paul's exhortation is never to crucify ourselves -that's already happened (Gal. 2:20)- but to crucify our members- our old selves- that are earthbound.

It is what one does when they yield their lives to the Holy Spirit, deny themselves, flee the devil, etc. The Christian life is not lived in a vacuum. It is a battle to be carried out every day, and every day the flesh must be put to death.

It is indeed a battle to be carried out every day, but it is a battle that we shall win (Rom. 6:14) because we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. The final victory will not be one until we shed this old body when we are with the Lord, but if we're not fighting it, we are not part of the Lord's army.

But the important point is that if someone claims to be a Christian and does not desire to live a holy life, does not make any effort to deny the devil, put sin to death etc., he is not a 'carnal Christian'- he is no Christian at all. 'And everyone who has this hope purifies himself' (1 John 3:3).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes.

No! The believer has died to sin It's all over Paul's letters. Read Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:3. This is what baptism signifies: dying to the old life and rising to the new. What remains, not in us, but in our mortal bodies, is a relic of sin which keeps bringing us down. Paul's exhortation is never to crucify ourselves -that's already happened (Gal. 2:20)- but to crucify our members- our old selves- that are earthbound.

It is indeed a battle to be carried out every day, but it is a battle that we shall win (Rom. 6:14) because we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. The final victory will not be one until we shed this old body when we are with the Lord, but if we're not fighting it, we are not part of the Lord's army.

But the important point is that if someone claims to be a Christian and does not desire to live a holy life, does not make any effort to deny the devil, put sin to death etc., he is not a 'carnal Christian'- he is no Christian at all. 'And everyone who has this hope purifies himself' (1 John 3:3).

Oui, oui, Monsieur. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

No! The believer has died to sin It's all over Paul's letters. Read Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:3. This is what baptism signifies: dying to the old life and rising to the new. What remains, not in us, but in our mortal bodies, is a relic of sin which keeps bringing us down. Paul's exhortation is never to crucify ourselves -that's already happened (Gal. 2:20)- but to crucify our members- our old selves- that are earthbound.

Oh, if only it were that simple! Then we would all be perfect. Entire sanctification would be a reality. We would never sin again because the believer IS DEAD to sin, as you wrongly state. That is a positional statement, not a practical statement.
If it were a practical statement why does Paul, in the same chapter go on to say:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
--This is to be done, by you, every day.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
--If you were completely dead to sin there would be no need for Paul to command you to allow sin to reign in your mortal body. That doesn't make sense if you are dead to sin.
--Don't obey sin in the lusts thereof. How can one obey sin if he has already died to sin. That is a contradiction. Think it through. If you are dead to sin, why does Paul give this command not to obey sin. It doesn't make sense.

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
--Don't yield your members...unto sin. How is that possible if I am already dead to sin?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
--Duh! I am already dead to sin. Right! And yet Paul says, For sin shall not have dominion over you. Why? Because believers sin, and allow sin to have dominion over them. That is why.

We are only dead to sin positionally, not practically, not in the practice of our life. If that were true, then we would all be perfect, without sin. But we are not.

It is indeed a battle to be carried out every day, but it is a battle that we shall win (Rom. 6:14) because we are more than conquerors in Christ Jesus. The final victory will not be one until we shed this old body when we are with the Lord, but if we're not fighting it, we are not part of the Lord's army.

It is a general statement and generally true. There will some people that never will gain the victory over some sins (such as smoking or gluttony, or pride) till their dying day. They will take their sins to the grave with them. We don't become perfect. They will die in their sin, even having lived in sin or sinful lifestyles (of a specific sort).
Read the biography of Mark Twain. It was his testimony that these hypocritical Christians--smoking and drinking Christians--preaching one thing and doing another, kept him out of the church and away from Christianity. But it doesn't mean those same hypocrites were not saved.

But the important point is that if someone claims to be a Christian and does not desire to live a holy life, does not make any effort to deny the devil, put sin to death etc., he is not a 'carnal Christian'- he is no Christian at all. 'And everyone who has this hope purifies himself' (1 John 3:3).

There is such a thing as a carnal Christian. It is described for us in 1Cor.3. It is pictured for us in the life of Lot, whom God declares as a "just man." There again is the thief on the cross who never did anything good in his life except to cry out to Jesus in his dying moment of his life.
The fact is that only God can judge the heart. We cannot.

 

[DHK]

We are commanded to live consecrated lives, mon ami. We are no longer under sin's realm, but live unto God. Paul is laying out that our walks and talks are in accord with who is our Master/master.

Would to God every believer would obey that command. But they don't. That doesn't mean they are not saved. Such a harsh judgment and (by my observation) you would be taking away the salvation of half the members of this board. Not everyone here lives a consecrated life. I believe many will admit that.

Correct. Our deeds tell others who we are really serving. Look, any of us, if someone took a photo of us at a certain time, and then blew it up upon a billboard for all to see, they would draw the conclusion that we are false believers. We sin, and at any time, people could get the view that we are false believers. But if that 'one time photo' is indicative of our lifestyle, that we are living in sin, then they would draw the same conclusion. But, yes, we do sin. But we do not live in sin.

So the photo of Elijah sitting by the wayside, dejected, wanting God to to kill him, absorbed in his own self pity, because Jezebel had threatened his life, would be indicative of his life? One photo??

The old self is crucified.

Only positionally. This is a wrong theology. Jesus said to take up your cross daily. Every day put yourself to death. Paul said: "I die daily."

It is like smoking. I have not smoked a cigarette, cigar, pipe in over nine years. Yet, there are times I want one sooooo bad I could eat it if it was lit on both ends...not the pipe, though...too tough. :laugh: So, why is it like that? As the old saying goes...'bad habits are hard to break.' Our bodies are still saturated in sin and remain so until we are changed into a body fashioned like Jesus' most glorious body.

That ultimate change will not come until glorification, when Christ comes. Until then many struggle with the same sins you mention, like smoking, and many never overcome it. That doesn't mean they are not saved.

The old self was crucified, but the fleshly man was not. The old self is the soul of man, not the physical body. As Paul wrote For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—[Rom. 6:6] The soul is what rules the flesh. When the soul and flesh were both fallen, they were in an accord with each other. However, after the old man, old self, was crucified, a new man came into being and now rules the fleshly body. When the flesh wants its way, the new man brings him under subjection, not allowing him to do whatsoever he pleases.

The old self is not crucified; he needs to be crucified every day. He needs to reckoned with every day. Take up your cross daily. Deny yourself every day.

Wrong. False converts do, but not truly converted Christians.

There are many worldly Christians. You would decimate evangelical Christianity by more than 70% if you took out the worldly Christians, that is those who claim to be born again. That is very judgmental. Listen to their testimonies on this board.
"I see nothing wrong with going to a bar and having a drink with a friend."
Hang around the music forum for awhile.
There are plenty of threads that start with: "What is wrong with..."
If they don't know already then chances are they are doing or believing the wrong thing.

False converts fill many a pew. Some are not obvious, some are. Look at the ilks of John Hagee, Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, et al. They are full of fleshly false converts who want nothing from God but a hand out from their horrible 'name it, claim it and blab it, grab it' doctrine.

I am not speaking of false teachers. Worldliness is common in evangelical Baptist churches. It is common in the way people dress, in the places people go, etc. There is a general lack of holiness and a common lack of spirituality.
Is the topic of conversation more likely to be football or the Lord?

Churches are plagued by this because it is being taught behind many pulpits, Monsieur. If preachers quit preaching this vile doctrine, churches would not be plagued by it.

I referred to holiness (which people lack), and worldliness (which there is too much of). Which one is a "vile doctrine"?

These are the characteristics of false converts, Monsieur, and not true Christians.

Not always. There are many Christians who act like the world, walk like the world, and cannot be discerned from the world. Though they may possess the righteousness of Christ positionally, in their lives they are not living it.
Was Lot, whom the Lord declared "a just man?"

All I am saying that we all sin, yes. Never stated anything to the contrary, mon ami. However, to say to someone who is living in a crack house shooting up, smoking crack, living a life of debauchery that they are Christians is horrible. Our lives are a reflection of who we are living for.

You are taking things to the extreme.

Huh? Whaaaa? Who said that in this thread, Monsieur? Please offer proof of such an outlandish claim.

Lordship salvation, as the name implies, claims that Christ must be Lord "of every area of your life" the minute you are saved. It uses the commands of Christ to his disciples to verify its position. In Paul's testimony, Paul, once he had seen Christ, answered "Lord, what would you have me to do;" immediate obedience and surrender. Not everyone is like that.

This epistle was written to explain that Christians, truly converted, blood-bought Christians, will not continue sinning. His seed is with them and they can not continue sinning. That is as plain as it gets. There is an old saying 'Plain talk is easily understood.' That is as plain a saying in 1 John 3 as there is.

Yes, but it is written for Christians to judge themselves, not for others to judge others.

As I previously stated, a 'one time photo' in our life could make us all look like false converts. We all sin, and will continue to sin until we die. But we do not dwell in sin's realm any more.

Romans 6:11ff says otherwise. If not those commands were written for no purpose at all. It is scripture written in vain.

The new man has taken over and when we sin, he, through the workings of God's Spirit, brings the flesh back under subjection. If the flesh is not brought under subjection and continues to live like it did before they were 'converted', there was not a change made, Monsieur.

That is contrary to the "chastening" that Paul teaches about in Hebrews 6.
If a believer does not change God will continue to discipline. If he continues in sin, He may take him out of this world. It doesn't mean he was never saved.
The heart? Only God can know.

 

[revmwc]

Rev.,
You're still bouncing up and down on 1 Corinthians 3 as if it were the only text in the Bible, but you haven't even got that text right!

Rom. 8:5. 'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.'

Look! Not all Christians are the same. Some of us quench the Spirit more or less than others; some of us grieve the Spirit more of less than others. Some of us walk in the Spirit more or less precisely than others. We all know that, don't we? I'm just quoting Scripture.

We also know that not all unsaved people are the same; they're not all Hitler or Pol Pot. Some of the are nice to their neighbours, some of them have high standards in certain areas and are upset when they fall beneath them.

But there is no third realm! There is no half-way house between flesh and Spirit. A Christian may be worldly in certain areas of his life, but not in every area and not all the time. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning , because he has been born of God. When a child is born that looks nothing whatsoever like his father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. So how does it happen that people are being born of God who don't resemble their Daddy in any way?

The Corinthians were being worldly in certain aspects of their thinking, and Paul's letters were designed to put them right. They seem to have done so in respect of the incestuous man. But these were not carnal Christians (1 Cor. 1:2-9; 2:3-4). They were Christians who had gone astray in certain respects, and who needed correction and to expel false teachers.

One area practiced is sin practiced and sin practiced is carnality. Paul said the Corinthians were carnal. John said the new man that is the spiritual alive man will not sin as spiritual but he all said we all sin and all need to confess in the flesh. Never did he say we could reach sinless perfection. Paul said he did what he wouldn't that is he sinned in the flesh even though he wanted to do what was spiritual. In the SARX in the flesh is what we are, and many belivers walk after the flesh and if they fail to confess or repent God will destroy them that is destroy their physical bodies by allowing satan to take them out via the sin unto death.

 

[Yeshua1]

Would you agree that the Bible teaches to us that once really saved, we will have a new bent towards God and His things, but that we still can be sinning at times, the difference though being a saint will not be enjoying it, but face conviction, and will eventually repent and forsake sinning?

But that we cannot just assume not saved if having sin trouble areas to still be dealing with?

As we all still have the flesh/sin nature to deal with , correct?

 

[Iconoclast]

One area practiced is sin practiced and sin practiced is carnality. Paul said the Corinthians were carnal. John said the new man that is the spiritual alive man will not sin as spiritual but he all said we all sin and all need to confess in the flesh. Never did he say we could reach sinless perfection. Paul said he did what he wouldn't that is he sinned in the flesh even though he wanted to do what was spiritual. In the SARX in the flesh is what we are, and many belivers walk after the flesh and if they fail to confess or repent God will destroy them that is destroy their physical bodies by allowing satan to take them out via the sin unto death.

Never did he say we could reach sinless perfection.

No one said anything about sinless perfection.
.

One area practiced is sin practiced and sin practiced is carnality. Paul said the Corinthians were carnal

No...that is not taught in this passage. You say it, but the passage does not.

In the SARX in the flesh is what we are,

No...
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

 

[DHK]

No one said anything about sinless perfection.

Those who say that we "are dead to sin," "do not live in the flesh" etc. are denying reality, and, in fact, stating that they are sinless.
The very fact that we do have a carnal flesh, a carnal nature and a battle with the flesh is one of the many reasons we sin. A person (i.e., a Christian) who gives into the sin of gluttony) is living in the flesh, giving into his carnal nature, and is a carnal Christian as Paul addressed the Corinthians in 1Cor.3:1-5--"Brethren...I speak unto you as carnal." No Christian is sinless.
.

No...that is not taught in this passage. You say it, but the passage does not.

How can you deny that it says the Corinthians are carnal.
Look:
1Co 3:1-4
(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
(4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

He calls them "brethren," indicating they are "brothers in Christ," even as he just finished calling them two chapters ago, " to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." There is no other reasonable conclusion to come to but that they are believers in Christ.
Now, he has addressed them as "carnal" four different times in these four verses. Thus we have Carnal Christians. There is no way to deny this truth.

No...
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Flesh is flesh. We all have flesh. Flesh has more than one meaning depending on the context of the scripture.
It is true that they are in the flesh cannot please God. Many Christians are in the flesh, if not all Christians at some point in their lives.
We are not all "in the Spirit" 100% of the time. There are times when everyone of us allow our fleshly nature to show. If that wasn't true then one would be claiming sinless perfection. For sin is of the flesh.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

This is the principle, the truth, that is being taught.
Later Paul puts forth the application of the truth. Put it into practice. He says:

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
--The believer, who is in the flesh, has an obligation not to live after the flesh. Every day he must put that flesh to death. If he doesn't he will die. The word "die" refers to separation from from God, just as the unregenerate are. It doesn't mean he will lose his salvation, but it will feel like he has lost it. Any person separated from God by sin feels as if they have died (spiritually), and they have.
Therefore, through the Spirit the deeds of the body (that is the flesh) must be put to death--on a daily basis, and you shall live.
This is how the Christian life works. In this is the application of the truths stated in verses 8 and 9.

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

Those who say that we "are dead to sin," "do not live in the flesh" etc. are denying reality, and, in fact, stating that they are sinless.

You falsely claim this"[in fact, stating that they are sinless.} No one says this, other than you.

The very fact that we do have a carnal flesh,

The scripture does not avoid that we a have a body of flesh.
We had a body of flesh before we were saved, we still have a body of flesh after we are saved.
The scripture instructs us how we are to deal with living in this body of flesh.

A person (i.e., a Christian) who gives into the sin of gluttony) is living in the flesh,
A person [not a Christian] who is a glutton is unsaved and dominated by the flesh.

titus1:
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. 12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.

giving into his carnal nature,

A person under the dominion to the flesh is not yet a Christian

and is a carnal Christian

There is no such thing.Christians are spiritual.

as Paul addressed the Corinthians in 1Cor.3:1-5--"Brethren...I speak unto you as carnal." No Christian is sinless.

you read without comprehension when you ignore and fail to highlight what Paul does.
The fact of this passage is that it is a rebuke to them.

How can you deny that it says the Corinthians are carnal.
Look:
1Co 3:1-4

The text shows us why if you highlight the correct portion and do not ignore it as you do. You said to LOOK...so we will;

(1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
Paul is saying to them.....A Christian is Spiritual...I want to speak to you as a spiritual person who you are in Christ, however you are behaving out of character.

I have to address you as if you were unsaved natural men still dominated and under the dominion of the flesh.
or as if you were baby Christians not at all understanding who you are.

(2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

a rebuke

(3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

As his rebuke continues he says they are walking as unsaved natural men....NOT AS SPIRITUAL PERSONS......IN THIS ONE SIN

He at this point in this letter is addressing this one issue...sectarianism.

(4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

here the one sin is identified and how it is happening.

He calls them "brethren," indicating they are "brothers in Christ," even as he just finished calling them two chapters ago, " to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints." There is no other reasonable conclusion to come to but that they are believers in Christ.

yes of course, otherwise his REBUKE would make no sense if he was rebuking carnal men, unsaved men.

Now, he has addressed them as "carnal" four different times in these four verses. Thus we have Carnal Christians. There is no way to deny this truth.

As has been shown, his use of the word carnal is the same word used for the unsaved man ....it is a rebuke.
IT is not an excuse, or an invention of a third kind of person who can deny the Spirit's work in sanctification as you suggest.

Flesh is flesh. We all have flesh. Flesh has more than one meaning depending on the context of the scripture.
It is true that they are in the flesh cannot please God

rom 8 is clear they that are in the flesh...are unsaved

. Many Christians are in the flesh, if not all Christians at some point in their lives.

This is a lie. No Christian is under the dominion of the flesh....kata sarka...Christians are under dominion of the Spirit...kata pneuma

We are not all "in the Spirit" 100% of the time.

A real Christian is.... he is indwelt and sealed by the Spirit......the Spirit never leaves him or her. A Christian can and does grieve the Spirit, but the Spirit never departs.

Being"in the Spirit" is not a philosophy as you use the term...it is a REALITY for actual Christians/
Being "in the flesh" is not a philosophy, or attitude as you use it...it is a reality for the unsaved everyday.

There are times when everyone of us allow our fleshly nature to show. If that wasn't true then one would be claiming sinless perfection. For sin is of the flesh.

That is why we are commanded to "mortify sin".... it is stated as a fact!

This is the principle, the truth, that is being taught.
Later Paul puts forth the application of the truth. Put it into practice. He says:

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


Those living after the flesh are unsaved and it leads to death .second death...eternal death..

--The believer, who is in the flesh, has an obligation not to live after the flesh. Every day he must put that flesh to death. If he doesn't he will die.

Here is your error.....Paul does not see...believers are in the flesh.......you do and error in doing so

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Also...Paul does not say to mortify the BODY...another error....he says mortify the deeds of the body.....there is a big difference .[/QUOTE]

 

[SovereignGrace]

Iconoclast, you need to straighten out your last post. Your quotes are intertwined with DHK's. But you're oh so spot on!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

The evidence of salvation is not that one looks back to the one time they were saved...we are to always look forward...but they continually look to the cross and He who hung, bled, and died on it. The idea is that we live a life full of repentance, seeing how we sin in these mortal bodies. A lack of continual repentance in one's life is quite telling, in my opinion.

 

[MB]

Being saved doesn't mean we no longer have a sin nature. Our nature to sin is an age old battle going on inside every Christian. We try not to and find we still do.
MB

 

[SovereignGrace]

MB, yes we sin, and continue to do so until we are separated from these mortal bodies. But those who are truly saved live a life rife with repentance. If someone sins(continually) and there is no repentance, that is very telling, non, Monsieur?

 

[MB]

MB, yes we sin, and continue to do so until we are separated from these mortal bodies. But those who are truly saved live a life rife with repentance. If someone sins(continually) and there is no repentance, that is very telling, non, Monsieur?

I agree Christians die daily. Which means we repent.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

..a life rife with repentance..

Lol, never heard it put that way.

 

[DHK]

Lol, never heard it put that way.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Repentance follows. It is a life filled with repentance for the obedient Christian. It is evident that there are some who will stray at times. According to 1Cor.3:1-5 they are carnal. According to 1Jn.2:15,16; Rom.12:2; James 4:4, etc., they are worldly. According to Heb.6, God will chasten them. A Christian under the chastening hand of God is one of the most miserable people alive. As the brother in 1Cor.5:1-5, who committed incest, he will eventually repent and return to the Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

According to 1Cor.3:1-5 they are carnal.

no

According to 1Jn.2:15,16; Rom.12:2; James 4:4, etc., they are worldly.

no

According to Heb.6, God will chasten them.

no

A Christian under the chastening hand of God is one of the most miserable people alive

yes heb 12

. As the brother in 1Cor.5:1-5, who committed incest,

In 1cor 5 this unsaved person was to be put out of the assembly until he repented.

 

[DHK]

"DHK,




no


no



no


yes heb 12


In 1cor 5 this unsaved person was to be put out of the assembly until he repented.

One has to love that exposition. So much detail given!

For a person to be in the assembly he had to be saved. He couldn't have been put out of the assembly if he wasn't first "a part of the assembly", that is one of "saints, sanctified in Christ Jesus" (1:2), and a "brother" in 5:11. Paul never said he wasn't saved but treated him as a brother in Christ. He was a carnal Christian who later repented of his fornication and was admitted back into the church.