Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[DHK]

God did not save someone, anyone, so that they could revert back to their previous sinful lifestyle and still be His. We have been called out of the world to live Godly, not to go back to eating slop.

Many people never stop "eating the slop." It is all around you.
Many people are lazy. They don't work hard.
Many people (and I refer to Christians by "people) lead spiritually empty lives and still claim to be saved--don't pray, don't read the Word, don't witness, etc.
Many people commit the sin of covetous almost every day--could be the most common sin among believers in our society (every one of us has a computer and how much more than just one or how many mobile devices and how are they rated--the best on the market, etc.) Covetousness is idolatry.

This list could go on and on. We don't want to admit it. But we live in sin. The Old Man is still there and it is a battle every day. Every day, every hour is a battle. Every thought needs to be brought into subjection.

To claim entire sanctification is sin in and of itself (1John 1:8,10).

 

[SovereignGrace]

Many people never stop "eating the slop." It is all around you.
Many people are lazy. They don't work hard.
Many people (and I refer to Christians by "people) lead spiritually empty lives and still claim to be saved--don't pray, don't read the Word, don't witness, etc.
Many people commit the sin of covetous almost every day--could be the most common sin among believers in our society (every one of us has a computer and how much more than just one or how many mobile devices and how are they rated--the best on the market, etc.) Covetousness is idolatry.

And all these traits are not characteristics that the saved have, Monsieur. Yes, we sin, and do so daily, I do not believe in sinless perfection. However, the saved do not revert back to their sinful lifestyle if they have been truly saved. What I mean by this is they may sin, but will repent and move forward.

This list could go on and on. We don't want to admit it. But we live in sin. The Old Man is still there and it is a battle every day. Every day, every hour is a battle. Every thought needs to be brought into subjection.

Look, the saved may commit an act of adultery, but will not carry on an affair. They saved may abuse a drug, but not become a full-blown addict. They may tell a lie, but not become a pathological liar. As the bible says in 1 John, they will not continue in sin because God's seed is within them.

To claim entire sanctification is sin in and of itself (1John 1:8,10).

And who has made this claim, mon ami? Not I.

 

[DHK]

And all these traits are not characteristics that the saved have, Monsieur. Yes, we sin, and do so daily, I do not believe in sinless perfection. However, the saved do not revert back to their sinful lifestyle if they have been truly saved. What I mean by this is they may sin, but will repent and move forward.

Look, the saved may commit an act of adultery, but will not carry on an affair. They saved may abuse a drug, but not become a full-blown addict. They may tell a lie, but not become a pathological liar. As the bible says in 1 John, they will not continue in sin because God's seed is within them.

And who has made this claim, mon ami? Not I.

Sin is sin. I perceive that you want to classify sin (much like the RCC does) into two different categories: The obvious, socially non-acceptable sins--murder, theft, adultery, etc. The kind that lead the unsaved to say: "I am not a sinner," because they are "morally righteous."

But I have been using the sin of gluttony for a good reason. Two out of three are guilty of it. And it doesn't take a lot of observation in the congregations of our churches to see if that number is true. Even if it was two out of five, or less, the sin is still there among many, many Christians. It is gluttony which ends up in obesity. It is lack of self control and according to 1Tim.3:2 disqualifies one from the ministry. But who cares about that, right?

We are willing to overlook "socially acceptable sins," just like society was willing to overlook "drinking and driving" until the consequences became too great to bear.

We are willing to overlook the spiritual lifelessness in those that call themselves Christians.

Lordship Salvation runs into all kinds of problems. In the end, it simply becomes a judgment call on works or a religion of works. Only God knows the heart. Christianity is all about a relationship, not a religion judged by one's works.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sin is sin.

Why yes it is, Monsieur. :thumbsup:

I perceive that you want to classify sin (much like the RCC does) into two different categories: The obvious, socially non-acceptable sins--murder, theft, adultery, etc. The kind that lead the unsaved to say: "I am not a sinner," because they are "morally righteous."

Do you remember asking me in a PM why I was once cordial and now I am not? It is stuff like this that makes my blood boil. I NEVER stated, even alluded to such as this, and now you must seek to prove that I did. Sin is sin, and any sin unpaid for by Christ, will suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire. By the way, you perception is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

But I have been using the sin of gluttony for a good reason. Two out of three are guilty of it. And it doesn't take a lot of observation in the congregations of our churches to see if that number is true. Even if it was two out of five, or less, the sin is still there among many, many Christians. It is gluttony which ends up in obesity. It is lack of self control and according to 1Tim.3:2 disqualifies one from the ministry. But who cares about that, right?

You need to take this is with the gluttons. As Iconoclast said, some have glandular problems, so gaining weight is a whole lot easier for them than others. But yes, gluttony is a sin. Another thing is people work jobs that have them sitting behind desks, sitting in the cab of a truck, &c, so being active may be harder for them. Truckers put in long days, some times 6 and 7 days a week, the same with those who have office jobs. So, they can be overweight, obese, yet not a glutton. They are just too wore out, or need to get some sleep after working 12-14 hours/day. Not making an excuse for them, just an reality of people having to work long days behind a desk or in the cab of a truck.

We are willing to overlook "socially acceptable sins," just like society was willing to overlook "drinking and driving" until the consequences became too great to bear.

I am not willing to overlook any sin, period. But just because someone is obese does not automatically equal to one be a glutton, either. If a man or woman, who claim to be a Christian, is caught having a fling with someone other than their spouse, needs to be addressed quickly. That is exactly what Paul was telling the Corinthian church they needed to do. And by the language he used, he was referring to that one as being unsaved.

We are willing to overlook the spiritual lifelessness in those that call themselves Christians.

You might, Monsiuer, but not I.

Lordship Salvation runs into all kinds of problems.

Only for those who hate it.

In the end, it simply becomes a judgment call on works or a religion of works.

Wrong again, Monsieur. We are known by our fruits. If you study this out, our fruits are our works. By their fruit(works), you shall know them.

Only God knows the heart.

Yes. Never stated anything to the contrary. :thumbsup:

Christianity is all about a relationship, not a religion judged by one's works.

Again, when we stand before Him on the day of judgment, what are we going to be judged by? The amount of faith we have? The amount of grace given to us? We will be judged by our fruits(works), and if they align themselves with His word. As Jesus stated There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.[Jn. 12:48]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

To claim entire sanctification is sin in and of itself (1John 1:8,10)

Indeed it is. Who has committed this egregious offense? Let him be named and shamed. Tell us, DHK, who on this board has claimed that Christians must be sinless or that he himself is so?

 

[revmwc]

God did not save someone, anyone, so that they could revert back to their previous sinful lifestyle and still be His. We have been called out of the world to live Godly, not to go back to eating slop.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

So who is the person here?

A believer facing the BEMA Seat Judgment where we as believers of this age are rewarded for all the works we did in this life. Paul clearly states they will see their rewards of wood, hay and stubble consumed. That means they did nothing for Christ not one thing of intrinsic value and yet they are saved "yet so as by (or through) fire." No eternal rewards!

How does a believer that you describe who because He has the Spirit end up with not one good of intrinsic Value reward?

 

[Iconoclast]

Indeed it is. Who has committed this egregious offense? Let him be named and shamed. Tell us, DHK, who on this board has claimed that Christians must be sinless or that he himself is so?

Of course no one has done this and DHK will try and avoid another post where he made the monster strawman to attack. This is quite dishonest. No one says such things of course,he cannot name anyone....in the middle of a thread he asked if I was a racist out of thin air:laugh:.....it had nothing to do with the thread whatsoever:laugh:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Rev.,
You're still bouncing up and down on 1 Corinthians 3 as if it were the only text in the Bible, but you haven't even got that text right!

Rom. 8:5. 'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.'

Look! Not all Christians are the same. Some of us quench the Spirit more or less than others; some of us grieve the Spirit more of less than others. Some of us walk in the Spirit more or less precisely than others. We all know that, don't we? I'm just quoting Scripture.

We also know that not all unsaved people are the same; they're not all Hitler or Pol Pot. Some of the are nice to their neighbours, some of them have high standards in certain areas and are upset when they fall beneath them.

But there is no third realm! There is no half-way house between flesh and Spirit. A Christian may be worldly in certain areas of his life, but not in every area and not all the time. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning , because he has been born of God. When a child is born that looks nothing whatsoever like his father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. So how does it happen that people are being born of God who don't resemble their Daddy in any way?

The Corinthians were being worldly in certain aspects of their thinking, and Paul's letters were designed to put them right. They seem to have done so in respect of the incestuous man. But these were not carnal Christians (1 Cor. 1:2-9; 2:3-4). They were Christians who had gone astray in certain respects, and who needed correction and to expel false teachers.

 

[revmwc]

Rev.,
You're still bouncing up and down on 1 Corinthians 3 as if it were the only text in the Bible, but you haven't even got that text right!

Rom. 8:5. 'For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.'

Look! Not all Christians are the same. Some of us quench the Spirit more or less than others; some of us grieve the Spirit more of less than others. Some of us walk in the Spirit more or less precisely than others. We all know that, don't we? I'm just quoting Scripture.

We also know that not all unsaved people are the same; they're not all Hitler or Pol Pot. Some of the are nice to their neighbours, some of them have high standards in certain areas and are upset when they fall beneath them.

But there is no third realm! There is no half-way house between flesh and Spirit. A Christian may be worldly in certain areas of his life, but not in every area and not all the time. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning , because he has been born of God. When a child is born that looks nothing whatsoever like his father, eyebrows tend to be raised and urgent questions asked. So how does it happen that people are being born of God who don't resemble their Daddy in any way?

The Corinthians were being worldly in certain aspects of their thinking, and Paul's letters were designed to put them right. They seem to have done so in respect of the incestuous man. But these were not carnal Christians (1 Cor. 1:2-9; 2:3-4). They were Christians who had gone astray in certain respects, and who needed correction and to expel false teachers.

They are Christians living in the flesh that is as the Greek states in the SARX or being sarchicos which is carnality. Let me ask you this will God answer your request for His will if you have committed one sin?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Let me ask you this will God answer your request for His will if you have committed one sin?

I certainly hope so, because I have committed rather more than one sin in my life so far.
You are perhaps thinking of Psalm 66:18. It speaks not of individual sins but of 'regarding iniquity in my heart.'

The Christian hates sin: 'For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practise' (Rom. 7:19). But when he confesses his sin, God not only forgives it, but throws it into the dustbin of history (1 John 1:9; Heb. 8:12) for Christ's sake.

 

[DHK]

Indeed it is. Who has committed this egregious offense? Let him be named and shamed. Tell us, DHK, who on this board has claimed that Christians must be sinless or that he himself is so?

No one. But there are Christians that are living in the flesh. That is why I use the sin of gluttony. I see it all the time. I observe people. I can't see how any honest Christian on this board will not agree with me unless you deny you don't have the same opportunities that I have. For example:
Often we have: A church potluck or something similar.
Often a group of believers will go to a restaurant, maybe a buffet after a Sunday morning service.
IOW, there are plenty of occasions where it is easy to observe the eating habits of others.

On these occasions when you see those who already are overweight, go back for second and thirds, their plates piled high with food, you know why they are obese. They don't have a glandular problem, or any other reason but their love of their flesh, and their sinful lifestyle. They call themselves Christians, but they live according the flesh. It is easy to observe almost anywhere I go at Christian gatherings.

Many pastors do the same thing. Now I travel a lot. I have visited many different churches in more than 30 of the 50 states. That is to my advantage. But I see this almost everywhere I go. The statistics don't lie either.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now I travel a lot. I have visited many different churches in more than 30 of the 50 states. That is to my advantage. But I see this almost everywhere I go. The statistics don't lie either.

Brother.... Do you get out to New York & New Jersey? If so, let me know.

Be Well!

 

[DHK]

Why yes it is, Monsieur. :thumbsup:

Do you remember asking me in a PM why I was once cordial and now I am not? It is stuff like this that makes my blood boil. I NEVER stated, even alluded to such as this, and now you must seek to prove that I did. Sin is sin, and any sin unpaid for by Christ, will suffer eternal punishment in the lake of fire. By the way, you perception is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off.

Simply making a point.
One point is that there are sins that are harder to judge than others because we don't always see them as sin. We become blind to them.
Secondly, there are "secret sins," that is sins in the heart that are more or less hidden to us but yet still just as grievous in God's sight. Both pride and covetousness might be two of those sins. Maybe envy is another one.
Jesus said that if a man lusts after a woman "in his heart" he is just as guilty as if he has already committed murder.
I wonder how many Christians can look at pornography on their computers without anyone else ever knowing. If it becomes an addiction, are they living according to the flesh? Yes!!

These are all examples, of those who could be living according to the flesh, and you wouldn't know it. This system of "lordship salvation" is basically a system of works. One looks at the outward "fruit" and determines whether or not he is a Christian. However, only God knows the heart.

You need to take this is with the gluttons. As Iconoclast said, some have glandular problems, so gaining weight is a whole lot easier for them than others. But yes, gluttony is a sin. Another thing is people work jobs that have them sitting behind desks, sitting in the cab of a truck, &c, so being active may be harder for them. Truckers put in long days, some times 6 and 7 days a week, the same with those who have office jobs. So, they can be overweight, obese, yet not a glutton. They are just too wore out, or need to get some sleep after working 12-14 hours/day. Not making an excuse for them, just an reality of people having to work long days behind a desk or in the cab of a truck.

Most people in our society don't have active jobs any more. As hard as it is they must bite the bullet and admit that it is a very simple process with a very simple solution. The calories burnt during the day are the calories that one needs in their nutrition to replace them. Thousands more will cause one to be obese. The body turns everything into glucose. And what it can't handle becomes excess fat.

I am not willing to overlook any sin, period. But just because someone is obese does not automatically equal to one be a glutton, either. If a man or woman, who claim to be a Christian, is caught having a fling with someone other than their spouse, needs to be addressed quickly. That is exactly what Paul was telling the Corinthian church they needed to do. And by the language he used, he was referring to that one as being unsaved.

Normally obesity is equated with gluttony. Less than two percent of the population have another problem that would cause the problem. And yes, such problems need to be addressed, and they need to be repented of, and their lifestyles need to change.

Only for those who hate it.

I dislike anything that is not scriptural. It is not. It is a system of works, not of grace. It is a system based on entire sanctification, not progressive sanctification. It is a system based on precepts given to disciples of Christ and then applied to new believers. Its premises are wrong.

Wrong again, Monsieur. We are known by our fruits. If you study this out, our fruits are our works. By their fruit(works), you shall know them.

No. God knows us by our fruits. Here is a passage (Matthew 7) that is so often taken out of context. Jesus, speaking to his disciples, said "You shall know "THEM" by their fruits. Two things:
The "THEM" were false teachers.
The "FRUIT" was doctrine, not works.
--How this verse is taken out of context and abused for another's purposes is shocking.

Again, when we stand before Him on the day of judgment, what are we going to be judged by? The amount of faith we have? The amount of grace given to us? We will be judged by our fruits(works), and if they align themselves with His word. As Jesus stated There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.[Jn. 12:48]

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, only believers will be judged and they will be judged according to their works.
But you are judging whether or not a person is saved according to their works. Even here you have taken scripture out of its context.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They are Christians living in the flesh that is as the Greek states in the SARX or being sarchicos which is carnality. Let me ask you this will God answer your request for His will if you have committed one sin?

We, as Christians, live in the flesh, not after the flesh. That is a major difference, Monsieur.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No. God knows us by our fruits. Here is a passage (Matthew 7) that is so often taken out of context. Jesus, speaking to his disciples, said "You shall know "THEM" by their fruits. Two things:
The "THEM" were false teachers.
The "FRUIT" was doctrine, not works.
--How this verse is taken out of context and abused for another's purposes is shocking.

If this was the only text in the Bible that spoke of fruit, you might have a point. But it isn't.
John 15:1ff. I am the true vine and My father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes that it may bear more fruit........I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me bears much fruit........If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire and they are burned.......By this My father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.'

The branches that produce no fruit are dead branches; living branches yield fruit to the glory of God. Therefore the dead branches are removed and burned.

Now not all branches produce the maximum amount of fruit- these things vary. But the branch that produces no fruit is no longer receiving sap from the vine. It is dead.

I was recently on a mission to Lesotho. Almost everybody there professes to be a Christian. Yet Lesotho has the highest AIDS rate in the world per head of population, and the 7th highest rate of murder. How can this be? Because people in Lesotho and elsewhere have been taught that they can live like the devil and still be children of God. It isn't so. This false teaching is sending millions to hell all over the world.

 

[revmwc]

We, as Christians, live in the flesh, not after the flesh. That is a major difference, Monsieur.

We are born again spiritually but still have a fleshly sinful body. An old nature to sin that while no longer dominant that is we are dead to the domination of that old nature, it is very much active in our lives. It brings temptations to us daily. Paul stated there was a war raging within him. We have that same war, most give in and then confess, some give in and allow it to control their lives again at least for a season.

Paul made it very clear we can walk after the flesh that the sarx in carnality.

Romans 7:
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

It appears sin dwells in us as believers and that sin is the nature of our flesh and as long as we are in this body we will continue to sin, many who haven't grown spiritually will end up practicing sin in the body because sin dwells in us at the same time the Spirit is indwelling us. It is clear Paul said that in him "sin that dwelleth in me" is there a greater believer than Paul living today? Paul the Apostle said "sin that dwelleth in me" not just the act of sin dwelled in him but the sin that the nature to sin was still dwelling in him.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

That is the sin nature that dwells in every believer right along side the Holy Spirit. Everyday as believers we fight a battle, do we follow the Spirit or follow out sin nature and give into the temptations it brings.


Peter also made it clear believers can walk in the flesh that is in sin they can make it a practice.

2 Peter 1
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Forgotten they were purged from sins that is they are believers but they have forgotten they have been purged from sin and therefore are walking in sin.
If we lack those Christian characteristics listed here in 2 Peter 1 then we are walking in sin that is practicing sin and therefore carnal in the sarx.


John also says we can walk in sin as belivers:

1 John 1

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

John says we can walk in darkness that is in sin and therefore in the flesh in which dwells the nature of sin.


Now here is what Vines states about 1 John 1:7-8



[FONT=&quot]

1 John 1:7,8; 3:4 (1st part; in the 2nd part, "sin" is defined as "lawlessness," RV),8,9; in these verses the AV use of the verb to commit is misleading; not the committal of an act is in view, but a continous course of "sin," as indicated by the RV, "doeth." The Apostle's use of the present tense of poieo, "to do," virtually expresses the meaning of prasso, "to practice,"

[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Clearing from these verses we see a believer can be practicing sin as a walk. Clearly when we sin we have no fellowship with God that no communion with Him until we confess our sins. John made that very clear using the term "we" as speaking to believers.
[/FONT]

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We are born again spiritually but still have a fleshly sinful body. An old nature to sin that while no longer dominant that is we are dead to the domination of that old nature, it is very much active in our lives. It brings temptations to us daily. Paul stated there was a war raging within him. We have that same war, most give in and then confess, some give in and allow it to control their lives again at least for a season.

This is quite right. I have no problem with this. The Christian life is a battle against the sin that dwells, not in our hearts, not in our spirit, but in our flesh.

But to go from there to say that the Christian can live like the devil and still be justified by faith is a monstrous falsehood. This is by far the most important subject on this forum. We can disagree about the end-times and it doesn't really matter. God will do what he has decided to do about that and He won't come to you or me for advice. But this teaching about 'Carnal Christianity' is sending thousands, probably millions to hell with a pocket-full of false promises.

1 John 3:3. 'And everyone who has this hope [of salvation] purifies Himself, just as He is pure.' That's everyone! Not just a few elite Christians. Anyone who is not seeking to be pure, longing to be pure, does not have this hope

1 John 3:6. 'Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.' Now we know that the same person who wrote 1 John 3:6 also wrote 1 John 1:10, and we know that the present tense in Greek signifies continuous action. 'Whoever goes on sinning has neither seen Him nor know Him.' We must teach this doctrine! 'Those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God' (Gal. 5:21). So many people are being misled by OSAS, and God will require their blood at the hands of the watchmen (Ezekiel 33:1-6).

Paul made it very clear we can walk after the flesh that the sarx in carnality [sic].

Not for any length of time! If the Good Shepherd does not go after the wandering sheep and bring it back to the fold, it is because it is one of the devil's flock and not one of His own.

Brother, may I plead with you in the name of Jesus to look again at what you have written on this subject? there are more holes in it than there are in a swiss cheese! A holy God does not beget unholy children! The dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolators and liars will be outside the New Jerusalem in the lake of fire (Rev. 22:15) whether or not they have made a profession of faith in Christ (Matt. 7:21), and those who have deceived them and duped them into thinking otherwise will be right there with them (cf. Rev. 19:20).

 

[revmwc]

This is quite right. I have no problem with this. The Christian life is a battle against the sin that dwells, not in our hearts, not in our spirit, but in our flesh.

But to go from there to say that the Christian can live like the devil and still be justified by faith is a monstrous falsehood. This is by far the most important subject on this forum. We can disagree about the end-times and it doesn't really matter. God will do what he has decided to do about that and He won't come to you or me for advice. But this teaching about 'Carnal Christianity' is sending thousands, probably millions to hell with a pocket-full of false promises.

1 John 3:3. 'And everyone who has this hope [of salvation] purifies Himself, just as He is pure.' That's everyone! Not just a few elite Christians. Anyone who is not seeking to be pure, longing to be pure, does not have this hope

1 John 3:6. 'Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.' Now we know that the same person who wrote 1 John 3:6 also wrote 1 John 1:10, and we know that the present tense in Greek signifies continuous action. 'Whoever goes on sinning has neither seen Him nor know Him.' We must teach this doctrine! 'Those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God' (Gal. 5:21). So many people are being misled by OSAS, and God will require their blood at the hands of the watchmen (Ezekiel 33:1-6).


Not for any length of time! If the Good Shepherd does not go after the wandering sheep and bring it back to the fold, it is because it is one of the devil's flock and not one of His own.

Brother, may I plead with you in the name of Jesus to look again at what you have written on this subject? there are more holes in it than there are in a swiss cheese! A holy God does not beget unholy children! The dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolators and liars will be outside the New Jerusalem in the lake of fire (Rev. 22:15) whether or not they have made a profession of faith in Christ (Matt. 7:21), and those who have deceived them and duped them into thinking otherwise will be right there with them (cf. Rev. 19:20).

God will let a believer walk in carnality for just so long. Then He will turn them over to satan for destruction of the flesh, but their soul will be saved

 

[SovereignGrace]

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.[Rom. 6:1-14]

No where are we expected to live worldly as the world lives. We are no longer in the realm of sin and death, but righteousness and life. The Christian that lives in the crack house is a deceived folk, I am afraid. The Christian who continually fornicates with others is deceived, too. If someone comes to Christ and you do not see a change made in their life, there has been no change made.

Apostle John wrote it best when he wrote See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure. Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.[1 John 3:1-10]


People are known by their fruits, by their works. Wicked fruits, wicked works, means wicked hearts.

 

[revmwc]

God will let a believer walk in carnality for just so long. Then He will turn them over to satan for destruction of the flesh, but their soul will be saved

1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

1 Corinthians 5:
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Right here we see two incidents of carnal believers whom Paul says in 1 Timothy as God's Apostle he turned two believers who had turned from the truth thus walking in the flesh as carnal over to satan for destruction.



He told the Corinthians to turn the carnal believer over to satan for destruction of his flesh yet he would be saved that is his soul would be saved in the day of the Lord that is yet so as by fire.


While they walk in the flesh God is chastening



Hebrews 12:

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


1 Corinthians 11:
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.


Revelation 3:

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


Here again we see the carnal believer receiving chastening from the Lord, if they fail to repent they are turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh and that is the sin unto death.



Romans 6:

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.


The sin unto death is continuing to walk in carnality as a believer. When God will turn them over is up to Him, He will continue to chasten them but at some point He will allow satan to destroy their flesh and take them out.


Do you think it's worth continuing to walk in sin? I don't that is why I confess my sins when I commit them, to avoid chastening and to avoid the sin unto death.