Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[revmwc]

Hebrews 3:
[FONT=&quot]12 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.[/FONT]

Seems the writer of Hebrews stated that brethren can have an evil heart of unbelief and they do it by departing from the living god. Because of a hardened heart through the decietfulness of sin.

According to the Apostle Paul we as belivers are told:

Ephesians 4:[FONT=&quot]30 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Not to grieve the Holy spirit so how can a believer who cannot be carnal grieve the Holy Spirit? He couldn't however a Carnal believer can grieve the Holy Spirit.

[/FONT]Paul said something else in Ephesians 4:[FONT=&quot]27 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Neither give place to the devil.


It appears as believers we can give place to the devil in our lives if we couldn't why would Paul say not to give the devil a place.


Yet we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are continually indwelt by Him as belivers of this the church age. However we are not always filled because Paul says in Ephesians 5:[/FONT]18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

The command is to be filled with the Spirit, how can we practice being filled?

By practicing confession of sin. How do we lose the filling of the Spirit by commiting one single sin. However our bodies remain the Temple of the Holy Spirit who continually indwells us, but the filling is our being under His influence and control and that we must allow everday or we walk in sin and therefore are walking in the flesh that is carnal.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[DHK]

DHK

This is subjective....any person under the dominion of the flesh is not saved .

God is the judge of all such persons. If it is a habitual practice of sin they will be sent to hell.

The old man is already crucified in real Christians.

Christians are not 'just like the unregenerate...they cannot be.

No repentance , no salvation.

You are very judgmental Icon.
67% of all Americans are overweight if not obese. This includes Christians and preachers. Are you judging them to be unsaved? Every preacher you see that is overweight and not repentant about their weight is not saved? That is what you have said! You are very judgmental.

Perhaps you should start a poll on this board to see how many are within the National Health Institute guidelines as established by the U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, as to whether they fall into the category of overweight or obese.

It is not subjective. It very much objective.
Those who do not take care of the temple that God has given them sin against God. They walk according to the flesh, according to the desires of the flesh and are no different than the world. According to your theology every overweight preacher is unsaved, especially if he is not giving an honest effort to change his weight. And many are not.

Gluttony is a habitual sin, a sin of the flesh and falls under the dominion of sin. There is no running away from that. 67% of the population of America have that problem. Are they all unsaved? No.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

You are very judgmental Icon.

We are to judge righteous judgment according to truth...jn 7:24
notice...in the part you quoted....I said God is the judge of all such persons.
we judge by outward appearances He judges the heart and has perfect judgment.

67% of all Americans are overweight if not obese. This includes Christians and preachers.

Sadly this is true and almost epidemic.

Are you judging them to be unsaved?

God alone is the judge.....but I am not free to give anyone a "pass" or any encouragement while they are in that condition. You yourself said it is a serious sin.

Every preacher you see that is overweight and not repentant about their weight is not saved?

Anyone who is unrepentant about any sin is in a dangerous position.
there are people who have physical problems, glandular issues, etc....God knows.... I do not.
Are the people struggling and losing the battle???? again it is not for me to say either way....but I would not give assurance to such a person and would caution them anyway if they asked me.

There are many such issues that many people presume they are okay...but they will be found cast into hell...mt7:21-24.

gluttony
gossip
lack of church attendance
lack of love
lack of doing the good works we are called to do
failing to keep the Lord's day
bearing false witness
lying


Did you ever stop and consider why a multitude of religious persons are cast into hell??? They think they are alright.....

prov14;
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

. It is not subjective. It very much objective.
Those who do not take care of the temple that God has given them sin against God. They walk according to the flesh, according to the desires of the flesh and are no different than the world. According to your theology every overweight preacher is unsaved, especially if he is not giving an honest effort to change his weight. And many are not.

again...God is their judge not me...

Gluttony is a habitual sin, a sin of the flesh and falls under the dominion of sin. There is no running away from that. 67% of the population of America have that problem. Are they all unsaved? No.

You say...no.....I leave it to God

 

[wpe3bql]

I don't know if this has been brought up in this thread [I'm too lazy to wade through 11 pages of posts, and besides, it's getting pretty close to chow time for me--9 hours between meals has my stomach growling. :thumbsup:]

Anyway one of my pastors of years gone by (45 to be precise) would often talk about what he called a "Christian's state and a Christian's standing."

IOW, you could consider a Christian who's living "carnally" (or maybe like the Prodigal Son) is in a standing of living in disobedience by his lifestyle of practicing sin for which he KNOWS is wrong.

As many have pointed out, sadly far too many of God's people are just the scribes and Pharisees whom Christ in Matthew 15:8 denounced as hypocrites (Mt. 15:7) in that all they do is give service, e.g., they may show up for church and go through all the motions like singing or giving, or maybe even shouting an "Amen" (as long as the preacher isn't "meddling" about what sins he may be committing) and so forth. But all that is merely for show. A good Sunday meal is the perfect opportunity for a large helping of "Roast Preacher" or "Roast song leader," or whoever it may be who turns him off and/or provides an easy excuse for skipping services for the next few weeks ["After all, you can't be at church when that NFL game you love is broadcast on TV!"].

The Corinthian church was full of these carnal Christians, yet OTOH, as my Life Application Study Bible [(c) 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust] puts it this way when it says in its introduction to 1 Corinthians:

"Many creatures blend into nature with God-given camouflage when it suits to aid their survival. It's natural to fit in and adapt to the surrounding environment. But followers of Christ are new creations, born from above and changed from within, with values and lifestyles that confront the world and clash with accepted morals. True believers don't blend in with the world's system very well.

"The Christians in Corinth were struggling with their environment. Surrounded by corruption and every conceivable sin, they felt the pressure to adapt. They knew they were free in Christ, but what did this freedom mean to them who lived in such a depraved and vile surroundings that would make other pagans blush. The worse kind of disrespectful curse a pagan of that part of the Mediterranean pagan society could put to anyone for which they hated the most was to call him 'A Corinthian,' something even the most hardened, sinful pagan of that era would cause his blood to boil, if he was the recipient of that low-down of a curse such as that.

"'Old habits die hard,' and nowhere do we see this more so in Paul's NT letters than we do in 1 Corinthians.

"Yet within this letter to this unruly church that was located along one of the busiest commercial routes for commerce from Asia to Europe we find some of Paul's greatest expositions of not only what God-ordained love is like in Chapter 13, but also how the hope of the resurrection should compel believers of all ages to live lives not based on worldly ideas and customs, but one that reflects a Christ-centered, blameless, loving life that marks one where the world about them will make a difference for the glory of God.

"As you read 1 Corinthians, examine your values in light of your own complete commitment to Christ."

So, while their state as Paul said to them in Corinth "who have been called by God to be His own holy people. He made you holy by means of Christ Jesus, just as He did for all people everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours. May God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ give you grace and peace. I always thank my God for you and for the gracious gifts He has given you, now that you belong to Christ Jesus," 1 Corinthians 1:2b - 4 [NLT 2nd Ed.]

This certainly would not be said by Paul if, by their carnal living they had lost their salvation and thus are all headed to hell once again.
Their state was secure as John 10:28-29 tells us, but OTOH, their standing before a thrice-holy God left a whole lot to be what God would have wanted it to be.

What strikes me as being so noble about these Corinthians was that as 2 Corinthians 8-9 tells us is that here was a local church that apparently had a rather large percentage of its members in the financial wealthy elite of that region--most likely because Corinth was located on that tiny isthmus that separates the Peloponnesian Peninsula in the south with the northern Macedonian region (Today the Greeks refer to it as the city of Korinthos.), IOW, a major crossroads [A "world trade center" between the East and West.] of business and trade.

Given all the negatives those struggling Corinthian Christians had within their membership, these Christians felt compassion for their brothers and sisters in Christ such that they wanted to give to support these people that one writer said were members of "the mother Church of NT Christianity" by giving a love offering of a rather abundant quantity that Paul spends two chapters that give us today the Biblical foundation of our giving of our funds to the cause of Christ, especially for Christians living in foreign lands.

Corinth was at least about 800 miles or more by land from Jerusalem [Not a two-day trip back then]. Moreover their native language, their ethnicity, and their religious roots were about as different from each other as any two members of the human race can be.

Yet, when presented with the plight of the Jerusalem brothers and sisters in Christ, they gave willingly and abundantly for their hearts were moved to do so.

Maybe it was because they took to their hearts what Paul wrote to them back in 1 Corinthians 13 about love not just being an emotion, but a true action verb.

 

[Yeshua1]

Don't write it off as "just some area to deal with." This is one of the most serious sins in the Bible.

Matthew 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
--It was part of an aspersion thrown on Christ to put him in the worst possible light as possible.

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Coming to the Lord's Table in such a state caused some of these believers their own lives. God judged them severely.

This was the attitude of unbelievers which God judges severely.
Luk 12:19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
Luk 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
--This gluttonous man, God called a fool! Eat (be gluttonous), drink, and be merry. That is the motto of the unsaved.

The person who does so does not have the fruit of the Spirit:
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
--They are intemperant in their food intake which is gluttony.

Paul spoke against it, and it made kings tremble.
Act 24:25 And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

The sin of temperance that Paul speaks of, speaks of man who lacks self-control. If one cannot control their intake of food, how can they properly manage the control and management of a church?

The ESV says:
1Ti 3:2 Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
--This qualification would rule out those who are grossly overweight as pastors.

So that would mean the DL Moody and others would now have been called by the lord then?

 

[Yeshua1]

Great point!

For why would paul and others continue to exhort and command us to keep on yielding and walking by the holy spirit, to daily reckon ourdselves as dead in christ, and also alive again, if that was all already a done deal at rebirth?

And does that mean that we need to reach that sinless perfection state in order to know that we are really saved?

Think that the truth is that to any married here, just ask our wife and kids if we have reached that state yet!

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK



We are to judge righteous judgment according to truth...jn 7:24
notice...in the part you quoted....I said God is the judge of all such persons.
we judge by outward appearances He judges the heart and has perfect judgment.


Sadly this is true and almost epidemic.



God alone is the judge.....but I am not free to give anyone a "pass" or any encouragement while they are in that condition. You yourself said it is a serious sin.



Anyone who is unrepentant about any sin is in a dangerous position.
there are people who have physical problems, glandular issues, etc....God knows.... I do not.
Are the people struggling and losing the battle???? again it is not for me to say either way....but I would not give assurance to such a person and would caution them anyway if they asked me.

There are many such issues that many people presume they are okay...but they will be found cast into hell...mt7:21-24.

gluttony
gossip
lack of church attendance
lack of love
lack of doing the good works we are called to do
failing to keep the Lord's day
bearing false witness
lying


Did you ever stop and consider why a multitude of religious persons are cast into hell??? They think they are alright.....

prov14;
12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.



again...God is their judge not me...



You say...no.....I leave it to God

What does one have to do though to be saved by God?

And what condemns a sinner other then being found born in adam, and continuing to keep on rejected Jesus?

 

[DHK]

What does one have to do though to be saved by God?

And what condemns a sinner other then being found born in adam, and continuing to keep on rejected Jesus?

Here is the problem for those who believe in Lordship Salvation.
First they must deny scripture on two fronts.
1. The entire book of First Corinthians was written to carnal Christians. They deny that there is such a thing as a carnal Christian.
2. Specifically, 1Cor.3:1-5 mentions "carnal" four times and Paul calls them "brethren" as in believers in Christ, hence "carnal Christians." Still they deny they are carnal Christians but relegate them to the unsaved or some other category. Either way they must deny this portion of scripture, spiritualize it away. It doesn't fit their paradigm.
3. Their premise: "A believer cannot walk in the flesh or he is not a believer," is what props up their denial of carnal Christians.
4. But the very common sin of gluttony is a glowing example of one who walks in the flesh and in most cases has no desire to stop walking in the flesh. They enjoy this sinful walk--eating food, too much food, the wrong kinds of food, food that does damage to their body. This is walking in the flesh. They demonstrate a lack of self control which, if enforced, disqualifies them from the ministry.
If theologically applied to their paradigm in Lordship salvation, it disqualifies them from being a Christian for they are walking after the flesh, and have been for most of their adult life. They have no intention of changing that we know of. They are not Christians at all.
All of us have observed such people. They are all about us. 67% of Americans are overweight and obese so no one on the board need pretend I am judgmental and I don't know the heart. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

[Iconoclast]

What does one have to do though to be saved by God?

And what condemns a sinner other then being found born in adam, and continuing to keep on rejected Jesus?

That is a different topic.....

but a saved person goes from being under the control of the flesh, to under the control of the Spirit...

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;


these are unsaved persons

but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit
these are saved persons


every person is one or the other.....

 

[DHK]

That is a different topic.....

but a saved person goes from being under the control of the flesh, to under the control of the Spirit...

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;


these are unsaved persons

but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit
these are saved persons


every person is one or the other.....

So you agree that if the statistics are correct (no reason to dispute them), two out of three professing Christians are actually not saved because they are overweight and are not doing much to correct their problem. (You should know by your own observation truck drivers are in a profession that leads to obesity more than other professions). They walk in the flesh and enjoy the pleasures of the flesh. Gluttony is one of the prevailing sins of western nations, of our affluent society.

 

[Yeshua1]

That is a different topic.....

but a saved person goes from being under the control of the flesh, to under the control of the Spirit...

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;


these are unsaved persons

but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit
these are saved persons


every person is one or the other.....

But the saved can and do sometimes act as if not saved, correct?

As the true Christian is not one who maintains sinless perfection, but who repents and seeks the Lord forgiveness and keeps moving forward after falling?

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is the problem for those who believe in Lordship Salvation.
First they must deny scripture on two fronts.
1. The entire book of First Corinthians was written to carnal Christians. They deny that there is such a thing as a carnal Christian.
2. Specifically, 1Cor.3:1-5 mentions "carnal" four times and Paul calls them "brethren" as in believers in Christ, hence "carnal Christians." Still they deny they are carnal Christians but relegate them to the unsaved or some other category. Either way they must deny this portion of scripture, spiritualize it away. It doesn't fit their paradigm.
3. Their premise: "A believer cannot walk in the flesh or he is not a believer," is what props up their denial of carnal Christians.
4. But the very common sin of gluttony is a glowing example of one who walks in the flesh and in most cases has no desire to stop walking in the flesh. They enjoy this sinful walk--eating food, too much food, the wrong kinds of food, food that does damage to their body. This is walking in the flesh. They demonstrate a lack of self control which, if enforced, disqualifies them from the ministry.
If theologically applied to their paradigm in Lordship salvation, it disqualifies them from being a Christian for they are walking after the flesh, and have been for most of their adult life. They have no intention of changing that we know of. They are not Christians at all.
All of us have observed such people. They are all about us. 67% of Americans are overweight and obese so no one on the board need pretend I am judgmental and I don't know the heart. The statistics speak for themselves.

Either one is saved by Grace alonr, thru faith alone, or its as RCC states, but his grace and our works....

 

[DHK]

Either one is saved by Grace alonr, thru faith alone, or its as RCC states, but his grace and our works....

I believe one is saved by grace through faith and that not of oneself.
The Lordship Salvation advocates must take a default position and look at a person's works before they can determine whether or not a person is saved. Thus salvation is by works by default.

 

[Iconoclast]

But the saved can and do sometimes act as if not saved, correct?

3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,

they professed to be Spiritual.....

but as unto carnal,

Paul rebukes them.....says he had to speak to them.....as if ...... they were yet unsaved[carnal]


he was rebuking them about this one sin right here.......not about living as unsaved day in and day out.

 

[revmwc]

But the saved can and do sometimes act as if not saved, correct?



they professed to be Spiritual.....



Paul rebukes them.....says he had to speak to them.....as if ...... they were yet unsaved[carnal]


he was rebuking them about this one sin right here.......not about living as unsaved day in and day out.

Do you believe the man who was practicing a life of having his step mother in a marriage type relation was saved or lost?

 

[DHK]

But the saved can and do sometimes act as if not saved, correct?



they professed to be Spiritual.....



Paul rebukes them.....says he had to speak to them.....as if ...... they were yet unsaved[carnal]


he was rebuking them about this one sin right here.......not about living as unsaved day in and day out.

he was rebuking them about this one sin right here.......not about living as unsaved day in and day out.

And just what do you think carnality is?
Living according to the flesh; like the unsaved are living.
That is exactly what they were doing. You hit the nail on the head. Now just believe it. They were carnal Christians, as you described.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Unfortunately, what we see here is someone taking a single text of Scripture, mis-interpreting it, and then bouncing up and down on it as if it were a trampoline.

'Do not be deceived!' Read 1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 6:7-8; 2 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:4-6, not to mention John 14:15.

 

[DHK]

Unfortunately, what we see here is someone taking a single text of Scripture, mis-interpreting it, and then bouncing up and down on it as if it were a trampoline.

'Do not be deceived!' Read 1 Cor 6:9-11; Gal. 5:21; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 6:7-8; 2 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:4-6, not to mention John 14:15.

Salvation is not "a salvation by works." It is salvation by grace through faith."
Once a person uses proof texts like John 14:15 (Jesus speaking to his disciples before the cross), they have turned salvation into a religion based on works.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So, basically if I am a good person, keep the Ten Commandments, and follow the general teachings of Jesus (RCC teaching), I am Christian and have nothing to worry about?? Really? Something similar is taught by every other religion of the world. "If you do good you will be rewarded in the end."
But that flies in the face of the gospel and the blood of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you believe the man who was practicing a life of having his step mother in a marriage type relation was saved or lost?

1 Corinthians 5King James Version (KJV)

5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


I do not believe he was saved when Paul writes this for sure.

I believe Paul is instructing them to put him out of the church....for the destruction of his flesh.....the idea being, unless and until he repents let him be without......perhaps the discipline will lead to repentance.

A believer who drifts into sin can experience physical death because of that sin....so some try and make that case here....in other words, put him out of the church.....he will suffer some disease that leads to his physical death, but nevertheless his spirit will be saved.

verse 6,7 seem to speak against it...purge out the old leaven, a little leaven leavens the whole lump.....notice the language of verse 11,12


11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without?



and again look at the 13th verse;
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Put away that wicked person......

Cornith as a wicked port city , salvation coming to the previously unchurched gentiles....there was much sin that had to be corrected and removed....wrong patterns of living.....

in our day ...salvation could come to a couple living in fornication.....they need to repent of that sin , and marry.

Paul when he writes the second epistle seems to indicate that they had changed and repented of some of the sins that he had confronted them on...which was a good evidence of the Spirits working the law in the hearts and a fresh obedience to it.


Paul had said in chap 6 fornicators do not enter into the kingdom....so unless this men repented ...he perished.
His sexual sin was not the unforgivable sin.....but while he was boasting of it , it gives no indication that he had a profession of faith.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Salvation is not "a salvation by works." It is salvation by grace through faith."
Once a person uses proof texts like John 14:15 (Jesus speaking to his disciples before the cross), they have turned salvation into a religion based on works.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
So, basically if I am a good person, keep the Ten Commandments, and follow the general teachings of Jesus (RCC teaching), I am Christian and have nothing to worry about?? Really? Something similar is taught by every other religion of the world. "If you do good you will be rewarded in the end."
But that flies in the face of the gospel and the blood of Christ.

So it is possible to live like an unbeliever, to sin continually and yet still be saved? I don't think so!

Romans 6:1-2, 14. 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?...............For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.'

Of course we are saved by grace through faith, but we are saved from our sins, not in them. The believer is born again by the Holy Spirit of God unto good works, not unto evil ones. Notice that Paul says that for the very reason that Christians are not under law but under grace, sin shall not have dominion over us. Not ought not; not even must not; but shall not. It's absolutely certain.

So what do we say when a professing Christian is living a life where there is continually nothing but sin and carnality to be seen? We have to say that he in not a Christian; that he has not been born from above and that he is in need of conversion. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived!' (1 Cor. 6:9).

BTW, it appears that the immoral man of 1 Cor. 5 was brought to repentance (2 Cor. 3-11).