Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[SovereignGrace]

Christians cannot be in a state of carnality. Christians can sin, but they are no longer sinners, positionally speaking. If a person is still fleshly (carnal), then they are not saved. John wrote:



John's use of the word "walk" denotes a close, intimate fellowship. A Christian cannot walk in darkness, although he can commit acts that are associated with darkness. The difference is that the Christians sins while in the light. That is why sin in the life of a Christian is unnatural and should always bring with it guilt, shame, and subsequent repentance. If a professed Christian can sin with impunity, or if their life can be defined by their persistent and unrepentant sin, then they may be the one Paul is speaking to:

Wonderful! :thumbsup: :wavey:

 

[Revmitchell]

Christians cannot be in a state of carnality. Christians can sin, but they are no longer sinners, positionally speaking. If a person is still fleshly (carnal), then they are not saved. John wrote:



John's use of the word "walk" denotes a close, intimate fellowship. A Christian cannot walk in darkness, although he can commit acts that are associated with darkness. The difference is that the Christians sins while in the light. That is why sin in the life of a Christian is unnatural and should always bring with it guilt, shame, and subsequent repentance. If a professed Christian can sin with impunity, or if their life can be defined by their persistent and unrepentant sin, then they may be the one Paul is speaking to:

We are all still fleshly. We have to fight the flesh every minute of every day. This body of ours has not yet received any measure of redemption as of yet. The moment we fail whether for a few seconds, hours, days etc we are walking in the flesh. God would not have a need to correct us if we only ever walked in the flesh briefly.

 

[Reformed]

We are all still fleshly. We have to fight the flesh every minute of every day. This body of ours has not yet received any measure of redemption as of yet. The moment we fail whether for a few seconds, hours, days etc we are walking in the flesh. God would not have a need to correct us if we only ever walked in the flesh briefly.

But we do not walk in the flesh. We are not carnal. Paul made it clear that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Cor. 5:17). The passage goes on to say that "old things have passed away. Behold, all things are new." John says that we are in the light. Not temporarily in the light, but in a state of being in the light (1 John 1:5-7). We walk in the light.

All of this does not mean that a Christian cannot sin Right after he talks about being in the light, John reminds his readers that they sin (1 John 1:8). There is a battle between the new nature and deeds of the old nature. The problem we, as Christians have, is that our minds have been trained by sin. While we are new creatures, we also have a mind that fights against our new nature. Theologically speaking we are no longer sinners and we no longer walk in darkness, but practically speaking our mind rebels against our new nature. That is why I believe that a Christian cannot be carnal, although he can commit deeds that are carnal in nature.

 

[Revmitchell]

But we do not walk in the flesh. We are not carnal. Paul made it clear that "if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature" (2 Cor. 5:17). The passage goes on to say that "old things have passed away. Behold, all things are new." John says that we are in the light. Not temporarily in the light, but in a state of being in the light (1 John 1:5-7). We walk in the light.

What you are purporting is that we must live in absolute perfection. Being new creatures does not have to mean not ever walking in the flesh. It does mean we are now indwelt with the HG and we cannot live in sin in the way we once did. Paul himself said he was the chief of sinners.

All of this does not mean that a Christian cannot sin Right after he talks about being in the light, John reminds his readers that they sin (1 John 1:8). There is a battle between the new nature and deeds of the old nature. The problem we, as Christians have, is that our minds have been trained by sin. While we are new creatures, we also have a mind that fights against our new nature. Theologically speaking we are no longer sinners and we no longer walk in darkness, but practically speaking our mind rebels against our new nature. That is why I believe that a Christian cannot be carnal, although he can commit deeds that are carnal in nature.

I see this part contrary to what was first quoted. What does that mean "theologically"? Are you referencing our eternal and justified position in Christ. That fact does not keep us from being carnal minded.

 

[Iconoclast]

I can't believe it!... This is the first time I agreed with DHK!... Brother Glen:thumbsup:

That should have been your first clue...

Christians are kata pneuma........not kata sarka

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


There are only two people...of the flesh
of the Spirit

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

 

[Iconoclast]

Revmitchell

We are all still fleshly. We have to fight the flesh every minute of every day. This body of ours has not yet received any measure of redemption as of yet.

We are still in a body of flesh,yes.....

That is why we are commanded to Mortify all known sin....

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

from preceptaustin;

The picture Paul paints is of a mind "possessed" by and thus controlled or dominated by the evil, "anti-god" flesh, and this picture is a description of all who are yet unsaved. Paul is saying that this means that one’s life (that of the unsaved person) is determined and directed by the values of this evil world system which intractably set against and in total rebellion toward God. Controlled by such an "anti-god" mindset is the only way an unsaved person is able to walk - according to the flesh. That person is still dead in their trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1-note), separated from the spiritual life God made possible by His Son. Death always brings about separation, in this life and the one to come in eternity (Rev 20:11, 12, 13, 14, 15-see commentary notes), unless one receives (Jn 1:12, 13) by grace through faith (Ep 2:8, 9-ntoe) God's Son "Who knew no sin (and was made) to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2Cor 5:21)

Kenneth Wuest explains flesh (sarx) in this verse as...

"...the evil nature. It is the genitive of possession. The mind is possessed by, thus controlled or dominated by the evil nature, a description of the unsaved person. That person is dead in trespasses and sins, dead in the sense that he is separated from God and His life, for death is separation, and is on his way to a final and everlasting state of death in eternity." (Wuest, K. S. Wuest's Word Studies from the Greek New Testament: Studies in the Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament: Grand Rapids: Eerdmans)

BUT THE MIND SET ON THE SPIRIT IS LIFE AND PEACE: to de phronema tou pneumatos zoe kai eirene: (Ro 5:1,10; 14:17; Jn 14:6,27; 17:5; Gal 5:22)

Wayne Barber reminds us that Paul

"does not say that the mind set on the flesh ends in death but "is death" (in the original Greek there is no verb for "is" so literally it reads even more dramatically "the mind set on the flesh - death").

All of the aspects of death are reflected in the mind of a lost person. In other words, there is absolutely no possibly of partaking of that which pertains to life. He knows nothing about the life that God offers. He thinks he is living life but is actually living in death and doesn't know it because he is deceived. And this describes the way we all were in Adam. All we knew was death. So everything a lost person is thinking, doing, looking for, etc is DEATH compared to the LIFE that God can offer to him. There is no possibility of experiencing anything of the LIFE that God offers to those who love Him. But those in Christ have their mind set on the Spirit and the result is life and peace. Life is the Greek word "zoe" which means the essence of life. He's not talking about how busy you are…about what you get to do, but what you know on the inside. In Philippians 1:21 (see note) Paul says "for me to live (zoe) is Christ, to die is gain."

 

[Reformed]

What you are purporting is that we must live in absolute perfection. Being new creatures does not have to mean not ever walking in the flesh. It does mean we are now indwelt with the HG and we cannot live in sin in the way we once did. Paul himself said he was the chief of sinners.



I see this part contrary to what was first quoted. What does that mean "theologically"? Are you referencing our eternal and justified position in Christ. That fact does not keep us from being carnal minded.

I am just repeating myself at this point.

 

[Iconoclast]

continued;

The principles will yet further influence our aims and ends of action—

A carnal man can only act from carnal motives: he will have carnal aims even in spiritual employments. A spiritual man, on the contrary, will act from spiritual motives: he will act with spiritual views even in his temporal concerns. The one will seek his own interest or honour, and the other God’s glory.

This difference in the operation of the two principles causes a corresponding difference,

II. In their effects—

The effect of the carnal principle is beyond measure awful—

This principle reigning in us proves us destitute of life; yea, rather, the reign of it is itself a state of spiritual “death:” it must moreover terminate in everlasting death. This is irreversibly decreed by God; and it must be so in the very nature of things.

The effect of the spiritual principle is inexpressibly glorious—

Wherever it prevails, it is a proof of spiritual life: it is also invariably the means of filling the soul with “peace.” Nor can it issue otherwise than in eternal life and peace. This also is according to the express constitution of God; and it must be so in the very nature of things.

Address—

1. The carnal-minded—

In what a lamentable state are they whose consciences testify that their thoughts, affections, and aims, are altogether carnal! Let it be remembered that it is God who declares this. Who would dare to continue in such a state another day? Let those who feel their misery plead that promise—There is the same grace for them as has been effectual for others.

2. The spiritual-minded—

Happy they who are of this description! Let such adore the grace that has caused them to differ from others. Let them endeavour to improve in spirituality of mind; let them guard against relapses, which will destroy their peace; and let their eyes be fixed upon the eternal state, where their present bliss shall be consummated in glory. (The Carnal and Spiritual Mind Contrasted)









Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, (NASB: Lockman)


Greek: dioti to phronema tes sarkon echthra eis theon, to gar nomo tou theou ouch hupotassetai, (3SPPI) oude gar dunatai; (3SPPI)
Amplified [That is] because the mind of the flesh [with its carnal thoughts and purposes] is hostile to God, for it does not submit itself to God's Law; indeed it cannot. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)
Barclay: because absorption in the things which fascinate our sinful human nature is hostility to God, for it does not obey the law of God, nor, indeed, can it do so. (Westminster Press)
KJV: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
NLT: For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will. (NLT - Tyndale House)
Phillips: And this is only to be expected, for the carnal attitude is inevitably opposed to the purpose of God, and neither can nor will follow his laws for living. (Phillips: Touchstone)
Wuest: because the mind dominated by the sinful nature is hostile to God, for it does not marshal itself under the command of the law of God, neither is it able to. Moreover, those who are in the sphere of the sinful nature are not able to please God. (Eerdmans)
Young's Literal: because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,




BECAUSE THE MIND SET ON THE FLESH IS HOSTILE TOWARD GOD: dioti to phronema tes sarkos ecthra eis theon: (Ro 1:28,30; 5:10; Ex 20:5; 2Chr 19:2; Ps 53:1; Jn 7:7; 15:23,24; Eph 4:18,19; Col 1:21; 2Ti 3:4; Jas 4:4-see notes; 1Jn 2:15,16)

HOSTILITY
TOWARD
GOD

Because (1063) (dioti) means on account of this or that or for this reason. Here dioti introduces the explanation as to why the mind of the flesh has death for its fruit, stating that it is because it is essentially at enmity toward God. In other words, Paul is explaining the reason for the radical difference between the two "mindsets" and he will do so in this verse by expanding on his description of the "mind of the flesh".

Hodge writes that the "mind set on the flesh"...

In its nature it is opposed to God, who is the life of the soul. His favor is life, and therefore opposition to him is death. The sinful mind is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God. The law of God, however, is the revelation of his nature, and therefore opposition to the law is opposition to God. This opposition on the part of the sinful mind is not casual or occasional. It arises out of its very nature. It is not only not subject to the law of God, but it cannot be. It has no ability to change itself. Otherwise it would not be death. It is precisely because of this utter powerlessness of the sinful mind, or unrenewed heart, to change its own nature that it experiences the hopelessness which the word death implies...“The will itself is fallen away from God,” says Baumgarten-Crusius. And the evangelical Philippi says: “This verse is a strong argument against the doctrine of the so-called ‘free judgment’ of the natural man. For this carnal state of mind, which cannot subject itself to the will of God, is not produced by any act of man’s will, nor can it be removed by any such act; it constitutes, according to the apostle’s teaching, the original nature of man in its present or fallen state.” (Hodge, Charles: Commentary on Romans)

Shedd commenting on "the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God," quips that this

is one of the tersest definitions of sin. (Shedd, W G T: A Critical and Doctrinal Commentary on the Epistle of St. Paul to the Romans. 1879)

The mind set on the flesh - The KJV has the carnal mind. Webster's more modern dictionary defines carnal as pertaining to the flesh, sensual with the derogatory connotation of an action or manifestation of a person’s lower nature (Ex: a slave to carnal desire). The 1828 version of Webster adds that carnal means "Being in the natural state; unregenerate. The carnal mind is enmity against God. Romans 8".

Mind set (5427) (phronema) is the noun that indicates the tendency or inclination of the mind, its bent, including the act of the understanding & of the will. The suffix -ma indicates the result of one's thinking.

Godet writes that...

The flesh wishes to satisfy itself: most frequently the law withstands it; hence inward revolt always, and often external revolt. And this fact need not surprise us. The flesh is what it is; it cannot change its nature, any more than God can change the nature of His law. Hence an inevitable and perpetual conflict, which can only come to an end with the dominion of the flesh over the will. Now this conflict is the way of death; comp. Gal. 6:8. (Romans 8:1-11 Victory Over Sin)

Hostile (2189) (echthra from echthros = speaks of an enemy in an active sense, of one who is hostile to another) means antagonistic, expressing enmity (this word suggests positive hatred which may be open or concealed, expressing deep-rooted hatred or irreconcilable hostility (this word suggests an enmity showing itself in attacks or aggression) or expressing antagonism (actively expressed opposition or hostility). In its essence echthra is the opposite of love. It describes being the enemy of another in this case of God. The sinner is a rebel against God and in active hostility to Him. If any proof were needed, it is seen most clearly in the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Echthra describes that extreme negative attitude that is the opposite of love and friendship. The NT views this attitude as the source from which hostile acts flow. It is the inner source rather than the acts themselves that are focused on.

 

[OldRegular]

Can a christian live a carnal lifestyle? Sorry if I was too vague. Google it and see what you think. Thanks in advance.

NO! Not continually! Though a Christian may live a sinful lifestyle for a period since Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[Iconoclast]

NO! Not continually! Though a Christian may live a sinful lifestyle for a period since Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

:wavey::wavey:

 

[tyndale1946]

NO! Not continually! Though a Christian may live a sinful lifestyle for a period since Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

There is none on here better than his brother... We all walk with feet of clay and when we fall and we all do, remember these verses from Luke.

Luke 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth... Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

Who brought up Lordship Salvation in this thread?

Oh, it's here, THICK.

...Wow. It's all over the New Testament, from the Gospels to Revelation. Probably the most direct treatment of it is 1 John - the whole letter....

So you say. Let's apply your treatment of John's epistle to Solomon.

Heaven or hell? Where's he at?

 

[kyredneck]

KYRED

What is your main concern where you think I error? ....

Ultimately, it's the same error that most make, Evangelical or Puritan. You insert eternal consequences into passages where it's not the intention.

 

[kyredneck]

NO! Not continually! Though a Christian may live a sinful lifestyle for a period since Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

You pretty much speak my mind except for this 'period' thing.

I think most miss the truth that returning to a sinful lifestyle, losing THE JOY of one's eternal salvation, is punishment/reaping in itself.

 

[Baptist Believer]

So you say. Let's apply your treatment of John's epistle to Solomon.

Solomon was in different circumstances than a person this side of Pentecost. The Spirit had not been given in an indwelling manner.

Heaven or hell? Where's he at?

I imagine he is alive in Christ, but I have no way of knowing. His body is in the grave (Sheol - sometimes translated, "hell") until the resurrection.

 

[JamesL]

Ultimately, it's the same error that most make, Evangelical or Puritan. You insert eternal consequences into passages where it's not the intention.

And by doing that, they are teaching (whether implicitly or explicitly) that only good people can have eternal life.

It takes all the focus off Christ and puts the burden upon a man to work for his eternal life

 

[OldRegular]

You pretty much speak my mind except for this 'period' thing.

I think most miss the truth that returning to a sinful lifestyle, losing THE JOY of one's eternal salvation, is punishment/reaping in itself.

It is my belief, based on my experience as a "True Believer, a Saint" that the "true believer" will likely sin on a daily basis.

It is also my belief that a "Saint" who lives a lifestyle that holds the Church up to shame should be excluded from the Church as the Apostle Paul advises in 1 Corinthians 5.

That being said I also believe that a "Saint" who continually lives a sinful lifestyle, bringing reproach to the Name of Jesus Christ, may be taken out of this world. I realize that the Scripture to support this belief is sparse in the New Testament.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes? No? What do you say?

If the context refers to the fact we are still in fallen flesh, the answer is yes. For those who doubt this...fast, you will soon learn the truth of the sway your flesh has over you.

If the context means that one can be a Christian and sin willfully, the answer might still be yes, because the same principle applies...we are still in fallen flesh and it is not until we begin to mature in Christ that we learn to master the flesh. I think most of us to some point still yield to fleshly desires from time to time, though as we grow those desires give place to a yearning to be more in the will of God. I also think that our daily conversation has a direct impact on how well we master the flesh, meaning, for myself, when I am immersed in the Word of God I tend to have better self control, and when circumstances make it difficult to be daily involved my walk is not as good.

If the context means one can sin willfully without consequence, the answer is no: all sin has consequence, and not just for us, but for those around us.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

They can and do walk in sin in fact they are eternally rewarded for that walk.

1 Corinthians 3:13-18
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

notice verse 15 some believers will recieve nothing but wood, hay and stubble for not accomplisihng any good work, yet so they will be saved yet so and by or through the fire which tries thweir works as they stand before Christ at the BEMA seat judgment.

But we see too Paul in verse 17 says if we defile the temple of the Holy spirit that is continually defile it God will destroy that temple.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

At some point the carnal Christian who doesn't repent of his sin after having been saved will be taken out by means of the sin unto death. Satan will be given free reign by god to destroy such a person by any means he decides. I believe it will be a long drawn out excruciating death. they can walk in sin as a carnal Christian as long as God allows them too, the chastening will be upon them until they are turned over to satan once that happens then they are going to have their flesh destroyed but the spirit will be saved when Christ returned for His Bride the Church and they will receive the wood, hay and stubble for their eternal rewards. Which will be consumed in the testing of the fire but the soul will be saved yet so as by fire.

 

[revmwc]

The writer of Hebrews states this:

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

"Take heed brethren", who are the brethren he is referring to? That would be saved brethren although the book was written to the Jews of the church who were saved by the way. Notice he says that we as brethren are to heed his writings so that we don't develop an evil heart of unbelief, that is not trusting God in our daily walk. He says these brethren could depart from the living God. Very clear a believer can stray and stop serving God. Otherwise the writer is teaching a loss of salvation and we know what Jesus stated in:

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.

The Lord Jesus Christ made it really clear HE and the Father Hold us tight once we have become His by Faith and calling upon Him. So the writer of Hebrews is clearly stating that believers can develop an evil heart and stray from God and Christ, even though they have the Holy spirit indwelling them.

Ephesians 5
17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.
18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Notice verse 18 we are commanded to be filled with the Spirit. If we were constantly filled with the Spirit then we would have no need to be commanded too would we? So the moment we sin we are no longer filled withthe Holy Spirit, we remain indwelt because our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, but He is not in control of our lives, sin is we are either filled with sin that is under the influence and control of sin or we are under the influence or control of the Holy Spirit as believers. So a believer either walks carnally in sin or spiritually being filled with the Holy Spirit!