Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[Martin Marprelate]

Gal. 5:19ff. 'Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication................envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'

God is not mocked!!

 

[InTheLight]

Just read this thread now. Great post Jordan.

 

[InTheLight]

1 Cor. 6:9. 'Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.'

"Yes, but I'm a carnal Christian!"

'Do not be deceived!'

Well, since I became a Christian I've coveted. Does that mean I'm unsaved? No. I'm fairly certain I've come home from my job with office supplies I hadn't paid for. Going to Hell? No.

"But.....but DHK told me it would be OK!"

No, he hasn't.

 

[InTheLight]

Gal. 5:19ff. 'Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are adultery, fornication................envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries and the like, of which I tell you beforehand, just as I told you in time past, that those who practise such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'

God is not mocked!!

...that those who practise such things...

That's the key phrase, and the keyword is practice. If someone makes a practice of these things, they aren't a Christian.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Well, since I became a Christian I've coveted. Does that mean I'm unsaved? No. I'm fairly certain I've come home from my job with office supplies I hadn't paid for.

Does it trouble you that you have committed these sins? Have you repented of them? Are you still committing them?
When you have a moment, check out the very first of Luther's 95 theses.

Going to Hell? No.

I think God will decide that, not you.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think God will decide that, not you.

It has already been decided.

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

He does not have to guess if he is going to heaven we as Christians can know in advance. As I am sure he already knows and has no need of someone on this board suggesting there is a possibility of anything else just because they disagree over secondary issues.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

It has already been decided.

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

Amen! So what are the 'these things' that John has written? Let's try 3:4. 'Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.' No we know, don't we, that this is written in the present tense which signifies continuous action? 'Whoever makes a practice of sin.....' But let's have a look now at Matt. 7:21-3. 'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.........And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you." Depart from Me you who practise lawlessness."' People who continue in sin- who have a sin in their lives which they are not prepared to give up for Christ- have a dreadful shock awaiting them at the last day.

Here is Luther's 1st Thesis, nailed to the door of Wittenburg cathedral on Oct. 31st, 1517: "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, "Repent!" He meant that the entire life of believers should be a life of repentance.' Luther also said that the true Christian was, at one and the same time, "Always sinning, always repenting, always justified." But I say that if there is sinning but no repenting, then why should anyone suppose that there is justification?

He does not have to guess if he is going to heaven we as Christians can know in advance. As I am sure he already knows and has no need of someone on this board suggesting there is a possibility of anything else just because they disagree over secondary issues.

What he doesn't need is someone with 'Rev' stuck in front of his name, 'Saying, "Peace, Peace! When there is no peace' and sending him to hell with a pocketful of false promises in his hand. Antinomianism is not a secondary issue.

 

[kyredneck]

NO! Not continually! Though a Christian may live a sinful lifestyle for a period since Scripture tells us:

Revelation 3:19. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

You pretty much speak my mind except for this 'period' thing.

I think most miss the truth that returning to a sinful lifestyle, losing THE JOY of one's eternal salvation, is punishment/reaping in itself.

It is my belief, based on my experience as a "True Believer, a Saint" that the "true believer" will likely sin on a daily basis.

It is also my belief that a "Saint" who lives a lifestyle that holds the Church up to shame should be excluded from the Church as the Apostle Paul advises in 1 Corinthians 5.

That being said I also believe that a "Saint" who continually lives a sinful lifestyle, bringing reproach to the Name of Jesus Christ, may be taken out of this world. I realize that the Scripture to support this belief is sparse in the New Testament.

You pretty much speak my mind again except for this 'likely will sin' daily.

I can't get up walk out of the room without sinning.

 

[Revmitchell]

What he doesn't need is someone with 'Rev' stuck in front of his name, 'Saying, "Peace, Peace! When there is no peace' and sending him to hell with a pocketful of false promises in his hand. Antinomianism is not a secondary issue.

When you attack the person you have lost the argument.

 

[kyredneck]

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Solomon was in different circumstances than a person this side of Pentecost.

So, was it easier to make it into heaven on 'the other side of Pentecost’ than it is on 'this side of Pentecost'? Was God more inclined to 'wink at their trespasses' than He is our’s?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

The Spirit had not been given in an indwelling manner.

That’s debatable.

Were OT Saints Indwelt?

I imagine he is alive in Christ, but I have no way of knowing. His body is in the grave (Sheol - sometimes translated, "hell") until the resurrection.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Amen! So what are the 'these things' that John has written? Let's try 3:4. 'Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.' No we know, don't we, that this is written in the present tense which signifies continuous action? 'Whoever makes a practice of sin.....' But let's have a look now at Matt. 7:21-3. 'Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My father in heaven.........And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you." Depart from Me you who practise lawlessness."' People who continue in sin- who have a sin in their lives which they are not prepared to give up for Christ- have a dreadful shock awaiting them at the last day.

Here is Luther's 1st Thesis, nailed to the door of Wittenburg cathedral on Oct. 31st, 1517: "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, "Repent!" He meant that the entire life of believers should be a life of repentance.' Luther also said that the true Christian was, at one and the same time, "Always sinning, always repenting, always justified." But I say that if there is sinning but no repenting, then why should anyone suppose that there is justification?


What he doesn't need is someone with 'Rev' stuck in front of his name, 'Saying, "Peace, Peace! When there is no peace' and sending him to hell with a pocketful of false promises in his hand. Antinomianism is not a secondary issue.

Funny you should say that....Ive got an entire church in my neighborhood teaching that Antinomian stuff, mostly to dumb Ex-Roman Catholics who dont know any better. Really, is this what we are producing? Very, very distressing.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17



So, was it easier to make it into heaven on 'the other side of Pentecost’ than it is on 'this side of Pentecost'? Was God more inclined to 'wink at their trespasses' than He is our’s?

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8



That’s debatable.

Were OT Saints Indwelt?

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8"

Excellent point!:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

It has already been decided.

1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.

He does not have to guess if he is going to heaven we as Christians can know in advance. As I am sure he already knows and has no need of someone on this board suggesting there is a possibility of anything else just because they disagree over secondary issues.

Quite true.
Every believer ought to have an assurance that they are going to heaven; an assurance that they are one of his sheep.

1Jn 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
--It comes through a relationship. If we know we have a physical relationship with our wives how much more ought we to know that we have a spiritual relationship with Christ?

One can fool man much of the time; but he can't fool God any of the time.

 

[InTheLight]

Does it trouble you that you have committed these sins?

No.

Have you repented of them?

Yes.

Are you still committing them?

No.

I think God will decide that, not you.

And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Colossians 2:13

 

[Baptist Believer]

So, was it easier to make it into heaven on 'the other side of Pentecost’ than it is on 'this side of Pentecost'?

The question we are discussing is whether or not a person is going to be changed after having become aligned with God. The Kingdom of God (that is, the active rule of God) became more accessible to humankind after the Incarnation and the giving of the Spirit to Christ's disciples after Pentecost. The Spirit is available to aid and empower us to live a transformed life in a way that was not available before.

Was God more inclined to 'wink at their trespasses' than He is our’s?

All trespasses/sin were dealt with in Christ. The sacrifice system was a picture of what would come, but it was ineffective for actually doing anything about sin. A person's attitude toward God - not strict rule-keeping - is the key. The proper attitude toward God results in a changed life that has both direct effects (from intent) and indirect effects (from change in nature).

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever. Heb 13:8

Not sure why you are throwing that in out of context, but if you are suggesting that the actions of Christ during the incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, and the giving of the Spirit made no difference, then you've really gotten yourself confused. What the author of Hebrews is teaching is that the character/Person of Christ does not change and He will be faithful to His people.

That’s debatable.

Just about everything is debatable. Certainly the Spirit was upon leaders and certain personalities of the Old Testament who were ordained to do things for God and God's people, but that seems to be a different thing than the permanent indwelling of the Spirit in all of Christ's disciples that begins to occur after Pentecost.

 

[JamesL]

The question we are discussing is whether or not a person is going to be changed after having become aligned with God....

I don't see that as the issue at all.

Every believer is "changed" - whatever you think that means.

The question at hand is: Sometime AFTER this change (since we're talking about believers) is it possible to ACT like you haven't been changed.


A person's answer is going to be shaped largely by what he believes this change to be. If you think your "change" is behavioral only, or a change of disposition, will, bent, inclination, etc....
And if you think this change is purely the work of God, then of course you're going to reach the erroneous conclusion that carnality in a believer is impossible.


But if you accurately understand that the change is a change in substance - the inner man has been cleansed, washed, purified, sanctified, made holy and perfect, spotless, etc....
And that the outer man is sin-wrecked....
And that the mind can be set on either the spirit or the flesh....

Then you will know that it is in fact possible for a believer to be carried away by the flesh - even for long periods of time, even unto death

 

[OldRegular]

You pretty much speak my mind again except for this 'likely will sin' daily.

I can't get up walk out of the room without sinning.

I know what you say is the "norm" for most Christians. I put that "likely will sin on a daily basis" to cover those exceptional believers, like you, who rarely if ever, dare I say it, "sin"!

And just because you are from KY don't mean you have to take a swig out of the jug before you can stand. Best take a swig when you first sit down; some of that backwoods "Jack Daniels"; the kind you have to saucer, let the dregs settle a smidjet {smidgen for the uneducated}!

 

[kyredneck]

The question we are discussing is whether or not a person is going to be changed after having become aligned with God.

Actually I was focusing on your statement that “Solomon was in different circumstances than a person this side of Pentecost.” The fact is their circumstances are so similar to ours that we’re told repeatedly in the NT that these things were written for our examples. Your error undermines an immense source of truth that is available for you to meditate upon.

The Kingdom of God (that is, the active rule of God) became more accessible to humankind after the Incarnation and the giving of the Spirit to Christ's disciples after Pentecost.

This would be a good topic for another thread.

The Spirit is available to aid and empower us to live a transformed life in a way that was not available before.

The way you’ve presented this before makes it sound like a “true believer” is nothing short of a robot controlled by the Spirit, and can do no sin (your treatment of 1 Jn). The fact is we’re not robots otherwise we wouldn’t have have been given these admonitions:

19 Quench not the Spirit;
20 despise not prophesyings;
21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;
22 abstain from every form of evil. 1 Thess 5

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have whereof to give to him that hath need.
29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.
30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4
(I appreciate the rendering of the New Living Translation: “And do not bring sorrow to God's Holy Spirit by the way you live. Remember, he has identified you as his own, guaranteeing that you will be saved on the day of redemption.” But of course I hold to ‘preservation of the saints’ as demonstrated in 1 Cor 5:5.)

Seeing you think those under the old covenant were different from us and never had the Spirit, don’t you think it odd that His people back then grieved His Spirit?:

9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.
10 But they rebelled, and grieved his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Isa 63

To me, the grand lesson in all this is the absolute faithfulness of God, regardless of our unfaithfulness.

Not sure why you are throwing that in out of context…

Which was: ‘Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and to-day, yea and for ever.’ Heb 13:8

I presented it precisely within context and properly applied it to the point I’m making which also happens to be the point made in the 1st chapter of Hebrews, that the God of the old covenant is the same God of the new and none of His attributes have changed:

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall not fail. Heb 1

It was the ‘heaven and earth of the old covenant’ that was soon to be ‘rolled up like a scroll’, shaken and removed:

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore, receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us have grace, whereby we may offer service well-pleasing to God with reverence and awe:
29 for our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12

…but if you are suggesting that the actions of Christ during the incarnation, death, resurrection, ascension, and the giving of the Spirit made no difference, then you've really gotten yourself confused.

No confusion here. Enough could hardly be written concerning the impact that His appearance has had on the affairs of mankind. But He has not made His children to be robots.

What the author of Hebrews is teaching is that the character/Person of Christ does not change and He will be faithful to His people.

In both the old and the new.

Just about everything is debatable. Certainly the Spirit was upon leaders and certain personalities of the Old Testament who were ordained to do things for God and God's people, but that seems to be a different thing than the permanent indwelling of the Spirit in all of Christ's disciples that begins to occur after Pentecost.

And behold, I send forth the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city, until ye be clothed with power from on high. Lu 24:49

Have you, as a disciple, ever performed miracles like His immediate disciples did?

 

[kyredneck]

OR, one more time, this hillbilly don't like corn likker.

 

[OldRegular]

OR, one more time, this hillbilly don't like corn likker.

Down here in Southern Baptist country we don't have to saucer our Jack Daniels! It is the real stuff, imported from the Ky/Va border close by to P and PG n that's all I kin say!