Is Drinking Wine Wrong??

[DeeJay]

NO, according to the Word of God that says fermented wine is to be avoided.

Just like all the cults. You twist the scripture to say what you want and ignore all the scripture that says you are wrong

 

[gekko]

deejay - i dont think it's christian like to accuse a brother of being in a cult or of having cult attributes...

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

We warn our children not to experiment with MJ, yet we drink wine "in moderation." We tell our children that the "high" experienced with MJ will lead them to experiment to other drugs. Yet we don't apply that precaution to wine. Why drink wine at all? Why does one want alcohol in a glass of juice? What's its purpose for being in there? Is it classy? Do we feel more noble? Upper class? Some will say "I like the taste." You can say the same about every juice known to man. Why add alcohol? Would you go to a Christian gathering where wine (with alcohol) was served? I wouldn't.

You're comparing wine to mj??? Oh please. Most people I know drink wine. Guess what, they're not smoking weed on the side. And you don't get drunk having a glass of wine either.

By the way, alcohol is not added to wine. It is a natural occurrence of wine. And yes, I like the taste - at least good wine, especially with a meal. Plus, it helps with your digestion. See Timothy.

 

[DHK]

I never questioned whether unleavened bread was used. (BTW, there are churches that use leavened bread. IIRC, the EOC might be one of them).
But the bread wasn't the point. The point was that the Bible does not speak of a need for "unleavened grapes"

Inasmuch as it speaks of unleavened wine it speaks of unleavened grapes. The inference is there. Where do you think alcoholic beverages come from. They are a form of corruption, that is all.

Still, the point is, you tried to claim that there is to be no leaven in the grapes as with the bread, but it has been shown that the yeast lives in the UNfermented grapes (where they are living and doing the fermentation), not in the fermented wine (where they have all finished the process and died). You all have not answered this point.

It hasn't been shown that there is yeast in grapes. It was a futile attempt that failed. I will demonstrate it for you.
Grapes left long enough will go bad. They will ferment (as Prov.23 describes) and become a corrupted but alcoholic beverage.
Bread, even unleavened bread if left alone over a period of time and under the right conditions will grow moldy. A tortillia (unleavened) has had mold on it. They do become moldy sometimes even though they be unleavened.
Oranges go bad over a period of time. Leave them a little longer and they become moldy though they are very acidic in nature. Apples also grow moldy.
I once left a glass of water for a couple of weeks in a dark corner of the church where no one found it. After two weeks, instead of evaporating, it had a layer of mold on it. Where did that come from?? The chlorine perhaps?? I think not?

Now if you are up to drinking moldy water, eating moldy bread, moldy oranges and apples, in general having moldy food for your meals, then you must admit that yeast throughout the Bible is a form of corruption.

You have made a gross error in your hermenutics. You have taken a parable and drawn doctrine out of a parable. Parables don't teach doctrine. They illustrate truth that is already taught in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible is your premise taught that yeast is good. It is always taught that yeast is a symbol of corruption, sin, and false doctrine. Yet you are trying to pull doctrine out of a parable and teach it as new doctrine. This is what the cults do.

The broom is not "represented" at all! It is not even mentioned; only implied. The point of that parable is not the cleaning process, but only the value of the coin. In the parable of the leaven, the leaven is what causes the lump to grow. If that parable simply said "a lump of bread that just grew" without mentioning leaven, you would have a bit more of a point.
The only point they are trying to make here is that leaven does figure positively in this instance (whether it is the central point or not).

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

saroo
[SIZE=+1][/SIZE][SIZE=+1][/SIZE] from a derivative of sairo (to brush off; akin to 4951); meaning a broom; to sweep:--sweep.

Yes, a broom was used, as the word "swept" indicates. And since she swept "the house" it would indicate the whole of it, which would obviously be behind the door.
Either way the point is made. One does not teach doctrine from a parable. A parable is used to illustrate truth that is already taught.

I'm sorry, but you are the one reading too much into things, to try to make an issue for comparison of a broom that is not even discussed in a different parable, and then even going further than that, with "sweeping behind a door", which is not even mentioned at all.

I am not the one reading things into parables--obviously.
Read the Bible.

Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees (corrupt or false doctrine)

1 Corinthians 5:6-8 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
(Was Paul referring to the Parable of the Kingdom here??)

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.
1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out the old yeast, (WEB)
Leaven or yeast are a symbol of sin and corruption.

8 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
--A direct reference to the Passover or inference to the Lord's Table. This would explicitly condemn any form of yeast which would include fermented wine.
Yeast or leaven is symbolic of sin and corruption. Is that the kind of Christ you serve--one who is full of sin and corruption?
DHK

 

[DeeJay]

deejay - i dont think it's christian like to accuse a brother of being in a cult or of having cult attributes...

I did not accuse SFiC of being in a cult. I accuse him of twisting scripture to make it fit his point. That is how cults form and justify their false doctruin. I stand by that.

I am also responding to SFiCs post that if a host serves alcohol it is not a Christian function. Meaning the people just think they are Christians.

SFiC, I drink, serve and make alcohol. Am I a Christian?

 

[DeeJay]

Originally Posted by genesis12
We warn our children not to experiment with MJ, yet we drink wine "in moderation." We tell our children that the "high" experienced with MJ will lead them to experiment to other drugs. Yet we don't apply that precaution to wine. Why drink wine at all? Why does one want alcohol in a glass of juice? What's its purpose for being in there? Is it classy? Do we feel more noble? Upper class? Some will say "I like the taste." You can say the same about every juice known to man. Why add alcohol? Would you go to a Christian gathering where wine (with alcohol) was served? I wouldn't

Well why stop with alcohol. How many people dont want their kids using drugs but then drink a coke. The caffiene in coke and pepsi is a drug. What message does this send to our kids.

 

[DeeJay]

It hasn't been shown that there is yeast in grapes. It was a futile attempt that failed. I will demonstrate it for you.
Grapes left long enough will go bad. They will ferment (as Prov.23 describes) and become a corrupted but alcoholic beverage.
Bread, even unleavened bread if left alone over a period of time and under the right conditions will grow moldy. A tortillia (unleavened) has had mold on it. They do become moldy sometimes even though they be unleavened.
Oranges go bad over a period of time. Leave them a little longer and they become moldy though they are very acidic in nature. Apples also grow moldy.
I once left a glass of water for a couple of weeks in a dark corner of the church where no one found it. After two weeks, instead of evaporating, it had a layer of mold on it. Where did that come from?? The chlorine perhaps?? I think not?

Now if you are up to drinking moldy water, eating moldy bread, moldy oranges and apples, in general having moldy food for your meals, then you must admit that yeast throughout the Bible is a form of corruption.

You are just WRONG. There is yeast on grapes. You can see it. It grows on the skin of all fruit and vegtables. Your demonstration has nothing to do with how alcohol is made.

You are arguing with know knowlege or experiance. Based only on what you want to be true.

Fermentation is not going bad. And if you think so then there are hundereds of foods you should stay away from. Sour cream, cottage cheese, yogrut, cheese, viniger.

If I thought you were interested I would explain.

 

[DeeJay]

DHK

Ok I have thought of my own demonstration.

I work in a max security prison. Inmates here take a plastic bag an fill it with all different types of fruit from their trays. They then smash the fruit and put it under their mattress where it is warm.


In four days they have a strong alcohol beverage. I can promise that we do not give them packets of yeast to add.

Please tell me How this happens?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

if a host invites you to a function and he or she is serving alcohol, you can bet your bottom dollar it is not a christian event.

Thanks SFIC. I'll let our Bible Study know that it is not a Christian event because sometimes, someone brings wine to share with dinner.

 

[gekko]

Red wine result when the crushed grape skin pulp and seeds of purple or red varieties are allowed to remain with juice during fermentation periods.

which wine are we talking about? red, pink, white? fortified, sparkling, table?

Table wine (which can also be called "still") are the most "natural". The alcohol concentration itself is not sufficient to preserve natural wines, they are pasteurized.

If the amount of alcohol is relatively low, the result is wine. If it is high, the result is a "distilled liquor," something like gin or vodka

Grapes on the vine are covered with yeast, mold and bacteria.

The skins and pulp which remain in a red wine vat will rise to and float on top of the juice. This causes problems (if it dries out, it's a perfect breeding ground for injurious bacteria)

what think ye of this?

---
information obtained from:
http://www.cheresources.com/winezz.shtml
not all material was quoted - read further to investigate.

 

[DHK]

You are just WRONG. There is yeast on grapes. You can see it. It grows on the skin of all fruit and vegtables. Your demonstration has nothing to do with how alcohol is made.

You are arguing with know knowlege or experiance. Based only on what you want to be true.

Fermentation is not going bad. And if you think so then there are hundereds of foods you should stay away from. Sour cream, cottage cheese, yogrut, cheese, viniger.

If I thought you were interested I would explain.

I am not wrong. If I am wrong then Jesus is a liar. Jesus differentiated between the two as did most people in Bible times. Some "wines" were unfermented, and some were not. Some had the power to make one drunk and some did not. If you can't tell the difference then I feel sorry for you.
Jesus said:

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

The fruit of the vine is the juice. It is grape juice without any fermentation whatsoever. Jesus says that he will drink no more of it until he will drink it again in the Kingdom of God. Explicitly he says he will drink it "new" in the kingdom of God, referring to grape juice, not the fermented "old" wine. New wine was the fruit juice straight from the vine. It was unfermented.
DHK

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DHK

Ok I have thought of my own demonstration.

I work in a max security prison. Inmates here take a plastic bag an fill it with all different types of fruit from their trays. They then smash the fruit and put it under their mattress where it is warm.


In four days they have a strong alcohol beverage. I can promise that we do not give them packets of yeast to add.

Please tell me How this happens?

Apparently you don't keep a good enough eye on your trustees. I was in prison back in the late 70's. My fellow inmates had trustee's sneak in yeast from the kitchen, which was added to the fruits. You better frisk those trustees. A natural fermentation process takes longer than 4 days under a mattress if yeast is not added. It too 28 - 30 days without additional yeast.

 

[gekko]

Some "wines" were unfermented, and some were not. Some had the power to make one drunk and some did not.

DHK is right on that point.
---

Welch's should advertise in heaven... they'd get lots of business up there.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am not wrong. If I am wrong then Jesus is a liar. Jesus differentiated between the two as did most people in Bible times. Some "wines" were unfermented, and some were not. Some had the power to make one drunk and some did not. If you can't tell the difference then I feel sorry for you.
Jesus said:

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

The fruit of the vine is the juice. It is grape juice without any fermentation whatsoever. Jesus says that he will drink no more of it until he will drink it again in the Kingdom of God. Explicitly he says he will drink it "new" in the kingdom of God, referring to grape juice, not the fermented "old" wine. New wine was the fruit juice straight from the vine. It was unfermented.
DHK

Amen, DJK! Also, Isaiah spoke of 'wine on the cluster.' He was not speaking of a fermented beverage.

 

[annsni]

Can we come back again to the wedding feast miracle? For those who believe wine is evil, can you please explain this comment?

"Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

Why would it matter better/worse if it were juice? If it were wine, this comment makes total sense. If it were juice, then what difference if you serve it first or last??

 

[annsni]

Numbers 6:1-4 says "And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2"Speak to the people of Israel and say to them, When either a man or a woman makes a special vow, the vow of a Nazirite,[a] to separate himself to the LORD, 3he shall separate himself from wine and strong drink. He shall drink no vinegar made from wine or strong drink and shall not drink any juice of grapes or eat grapes, fresh or dried. 4All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, not even the seeds or the skins."

There is a definate deliniation between wine, strong drink, vinegar, juice and even eating grapes and raisins! This is the one passage that I can agree is talking of juice and not wine.

 

[saturneptune]

Can we come back again to the wedding feast miracle? For those who believe wine is evil, can you please explain this comment?

"Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

Why would it matter better/worse if it were juice? If it were wine, this comment makes total sense. If it were juice, then what difference if you serve it first or last??

Arguing about whether there was wine at the marriage ceremony misses the whole point. To tell you the truth, I dont care if it was there or not. It seems to me lots of people are looking for a Biblical reason to drink. And yes, searching through the Bible, one would be pressed to find a prohibition against drinking.

What is important is that drinking wine is wrong for me for several reasons. First of all, it produces nothing positive. Since I teach a high school Sunday School class, it says something to me that I have no problem with a coke or coffee teaching the class, but it is hard to imagine wine or a beer in my hand with a lit cigarette trying to explain the Gospel. Romans 12:1 is enough to settle the question for me.

Why is there always this great desire to drink alcohol? How does it further the cause of Christ? It seems to me that looking for a technical reason to drink in the Bible is kind of like the Pharisees.

 

[gekko]

but it is hard to imagine wine or a beer in my hand with a lit cigarette trying to explain the Gospel.

why stereotype wine-drinkers with smoking? plain dumb.
---

drink wine in moderation - and in private. dont drink it when others are around. and that way - romans 14 will be satisfied.

 

[annsni]

Arguing about whether there was wine at the marriage ceremony misses the whole point. To tell you the truth, I dont care if it was there or not. It seems to me lots of people are looking for a Biblical reason to drink. And yes, searching through the Bible, one would be pressed to find a prohibition against drinking.

What is important is that drinking wine is wrong for me for several reasons. First of all, it produces nothing positive. Since I teach a high school Sunday School class, it says something to me that I have no problem with a coke or coffee teaching the class, but it is hard to imagine wine or a beer in my hand with a lit cigarette trying to explain the Gospel. Romans 12:1 is enough to settle the question for me.

Why is there always this great desire to drink alcohol? How does it further the cause of Christ? It seems to me that looking for a technical reason to drink in the Bible is kind of like the Pharisees.

But that's the issue. I also don't drink (anymore - I used to have a couple of drinks a year) as my husband and I work with our college ministry and I know those kids struggle enough without seeing their pastor and his wife drinking too. As you've said, it's wrong for you to drink. I totally respect you and stand with you in that. What gets to many of us here in this thread is someone saying that alcohol is prohibited in the Bible and that by drinking it, we would be going to hell. That Jesus even MADE wine is wrong - He only made grape juice and every other verse in the Bible that talks of wine in a positive way, it's really talking about grape juice yet when it's speaking negatively, then it DOES mean alcohol. It is the misconstruing of Scripture and calling something that GOD doesn't call a sin a sin. That's what we're arguing against.

 

[saturneptune]

What is plain dumb is drinking wine in private. Either it is right or it is wrong. And look, I have been around the block. Cigarette smoking goes with it, so stop with your modern philisophical baloney.