Is Drinking Wine Wrong??

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The wine Christ made was the "best", the same kind of wine the Lord of Hosts will serve us someday in Isaiah 25:6...
Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Alcohol kills. Our Lord will not serve and has never served anything that would kill or add to man's drunkenness.

When Christ made the wine, the guests had 'well drunk' already. They drank to the point that there was no more wine in the house.

These men could not have 'well drunk' fermented wine and Christ added to that by making more wine to add to their sin. The wine at the wedding feast was not fermented.

 

[webdog]

For those who want an unbiased opionion on all Scripture references about alcohol in the Bible, click... http://wooga.drbacchus.com/bible/alcoholr.html

 

[webdog]

Alcohol kills. Our Lord will not serve and has never served anything that would kill or add to man's drunkenness.

When Christ made the wine, the guests had 'well drunk' already. They drank to the point that there was no more wine in the house.

These men could not have 'well drunk' fermented wine and Christ added to that by making more wine to add to their sin. The wine at the wedding feast was not fermented.

Do I listen to you...or Scripture?

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I went to your blogsite and you are using scripture out of context to show Jesus drank alcohol. Luke 7:33-35 says nothing of Christ drinking alcohol.

You are throwing a stumbling block in another's path.

Christ showed in verse 33 that they accused John the Baptist wrong. He went on to say they were accusing Him wrongly also.

Christ did not drink alcohol

 

[webdog]

I went to your blogsite and you are using scripture out of context to show Jesus drank alcohol. Luke 7:33-35 says nothing of Christ drinking alcohol.

You really cannot be serious.

You are throwing a stumbling block in another's path.

...or are you?

Christ showed in verse 33 that they accused John the Baptist wrong. He went on to say they were accusing Him wrongly also.

Christ showed the Pharisees accused John the Baptist AND Jesus falselsy...JTB for being a nutcase for fasting and abstainging from alcohol, and Jesus for being a glutton and a drunk for not abstaining.

Christ did not drink alcohol

If He celebrated the Passover, He did. Scripture doesn't back your point.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Ye do err not knowing the scriptures.

lessee now... I am telling people to abstain from the very drink that hinders a pure walk in Jesus Christ. You tell them it is ok to drink alcohol.

And you think I am the one throwing the stumbling block in people's path?

Amazing!

 

[gekko]

Ye do err not knowing the scriptures.

say that to yourself.

please read the following:

Romans 14
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

You HBSMN - are judging Webdog for drinking.
you webdog seem to keep going with it.

the above two statements contradict what should be happening according to scripture.

listen up:

ask yourself this:
is the subject of alcohol going to affect ones salvation?
well - it shouldn't. the answer is... no. its not a matter of righteousness, peace, or joy.

if the matter does not concern salvation: then do not sit there and judge people. and the other side should not be provoking it.

we must not - and brothers and sisters in Christ - put ANY kind of stumbling block in front of our other brothers and sisters who have a weakness.

HBSMN - do you have a weakness with alcohol? if you do - then stay away from it - this thread - and otherwise.

this is a debate forum - therefore the subject of alcohol in scripture WILL come up. but dont go judging those who think it is alcohol.

3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

the same could be said "Let not him that drinketh despise him that drinketh not; and let not him which drinketh not judge him that drinketh: for God hath received him."

to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

For meat destroy not the work of God. - (same could be said "For drink destroy not the work of God)

17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

---

we wouldn't be arguing whether having nicer clothes then someone and the poor guy was somehow stumbling because of it...

yah this is a spiritual matter - but not a matter of righteousness, peace or joy.

so please- examine what you're doing here.
---

God's peace and blessings.

 

[AF Guy N Paradise]

What gets me is the fact that one glass of wine, one beer, or one glass of any alcohol can actually cause one to be over the legal limit and get hit with a DUI or other charge.

Wouldn't that be considered legal drunkeness? And what does it say about drunkeness?

Moderation must be the glasses we use for the Lord's Supper...

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

if it seems that I am judging webdog, then so be it. I am judging according to scripture. We are commanded to judge according to scripture. As a matter of fact, Jesus said, 'Judge righteous judgment.' If one's talk and actions do not line up with scripture, it is our responsibility to correct them using scripture. I have done this.

AF Guy is correct. One drink can get a person a DUI, what do you think it will do in the eyes of the Lord?

 

[Taufgesinnter]

The DEFINITION of AGED wine *is* fermentation

I don't know about anyone else, but I give up. When someone has been admonished a great number of times, will not receive spiritual instruction or accept correction from elders in the faith, and manifests little humility while promoting his errors, we can do no more than, finally, ignore such a one and hope and pray that person will eventually mature beyond doubtful disputations. Godly rebuke will have no effect but to puff up that person, already wise in his own mind, who will only take it as suffering for Christ or some other evidence that he is correct in his twisting of general OT proverbial advice into direct, binding commands, and in his eisegesis of the genuinely direct commands of the NT into meanings nothing like God inspired.

Although I am casting the dust of this thread off my feet, yet I hope that lurkers, and others who may still be in error, will benefit from my posts and the posts of the others here who tried to reason with a wayward youngster in the faith.

I was once cocky and immature on this subject. I ignored clear passages in which God said that Christians could imbibe alcohol in moderation without sin as long as they realized that they could, while I myself was one who could not because I did not (realize I could, that is). We should remember that Scripture teaches us that a weak brother cannot partake of God's gift of good wine without sinning because he is not fully persuaded of that truth. We should not place a block in front of such to make him stumble, but simply wait for him to grow up. It may take decades, and some never do. But it's all we can do.

The deciding factor that opened my eyes was history. The fact that all grape juice naturally ferments within a couple days of pressing, absent modern technology, and because the last grape harvest in Judea was months before, and the next one months after, Passover, meant that the wine used in the Last Supper had to be ordinary wine, not modern grape juice.

When I realized this, I began obeying the Scriptures that command us not to judge a brother for drinking wine.

In closing, I remind readers here that I don't like wine personally, and have never been drunk even once. I'm not advocating drinking, I'm advocating following the Scriptures instead of twisting them beyond recognition.

Take care everybody.

 

[gekko]

amazing post Taufgesinnter (what does that mean by the way? is it your name? or what? its neat)!

HBPMN - when Jesus spoke the words "judge a righteous judgment" - notice the word 'righteous'

drinking wine is not a matter of righteousness - getting drunk off drinking excessively (according to how much you can take - which we should not test to where the line is) getting drunk is a matter of righteousness - because when one is drunk - what he really thinks or feels comes out (or something like that) because unrighteous things can happen when you are drunk - but not if you're taking a sip of wine.

who knows how much wine they had at the last dinner? i sure dont know. but it doesn't matter to me - because it doesn't concern salvation.
---

take Tauf's advice - do as scripture says - if you want to judge according to scripture - then heed scripture that says not to judge those who drink.

it goes both ways. don't provoke either.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Ye shall know the tree by it's fruit. We can judge.

When a person erroneously claims my Lord made and drank alcoholic wine, I have every right to judge him according to the scripture as being a false teacher.

When a person erroneously teaches that it is ok to drink alcoholic beverages, I have every right to judge him according to the scriptures as a false teacher.

 

[TaliOrlando]

HELLO I GOT THIS FROM WWW.RAPTUREREADY.COM WHAT DO YOU BROTHERS AND SITERS THINK ABOUT IT


Is drinking beer or wine a sin?


Like most things, this is up to interpretation. Do you feel sinful when you drink alcohol? If so, then stop. God is telling you to stop. There are a few good passages about this subject in the Bible.

1 Timothy 3:3: “Not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.”

Matthew 15:11: “What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Romans 14:14: “As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food [Or that nothing] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.” (As a matter of fact, the entire chapter of Romans 14 is good.) And a few more:

1 Timothy 3:8: “Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain.”

1 Timothy 5:23: “Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.”

Basically the Bible tells us that it's not a sin to have a beer or a glass of wine. But we must not give into drunkenness.

Basically what the Bible tells us is, it's not a sin to have a beer or a glass of wine. But not to give into drunkenness.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Do you feel sinful when you drink alcohol? If so, then stop. God is telling you to stop.

Basically what the Bible tells us is, it's not a sin to have a beer or a glass of wine.

These two quotes contradict one another, don't they?

Besides, God is not a respector of persons. He is not going to tell one person it is ok to drink beer or wine and another they can't drink it.

He tells all to stay away from it. Proverbs 23:31

 

[DeeJay]

What gets me is the fact that one glass of wine, one beer, or one glass of any alcohol can actually cause one to be over the legal limit and get hit with a DUI or other charge.

Wouldn't that be considered legal drunkeness? And what does it say about drunkeness?

Moderation must be the glasses we use for the Lord's Supper...

There is no way one glass of wine or one beer will cause any normal sized adult to be anywhere near the legal limit. .08 in my state.

I am sure there are some people out there that can not take any amount of alcohol. They should abstain.

 

[DeeJay]

Do I listen to you...or Scripture?

Isa 25:6 On this mountain the LORD of hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine, of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

Not only is this wine well aged and well refined. It sits on its lees.

And in this mountain
The LORD of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
Isaiah 25:6

Lees the sediment in the bottem of a wine bottle made from dead yeast cells that have been killed by a fully fermented wine. When wine is bottled there are a few yeast cells left. A very small amount of fermentation is still taking place. When the last of the yeast dies it leaves a thin layer of sediment on the bottom of the bottle. This is called lees. The wine with lees is safe to drink on passover and is now well preserved because the fermentation has stoped compleatly.

The presence of Lees proves this is fermented wine.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

There is no way one glass of wine or one beer will cause any normal sized adult to be anywhere near the legal limit. .08 in my state.

I am sure there are some people out there that can not take any amount of alcohol. They should abstain.

Can't ya make up yer mind?

 

[LeBuick]

I once had a guy use this verse;

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee,

So I had to add the rest of the verse;

when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Now here is another where a person voluntarily separates themself (vow a vow of a Nazarite) but is used in this same discussion.

Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD: 3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

 

[gekko]

When a person erroneously claims my Lord made and drank alcoholic wine, I have every right to judge him according to the scripture as being a false teacher.

When a person erroneously teaches that it is ok to drink alcoholic beverages, I have every right to judge him according to the scriptures as a false teacher.

then judge the guy. romans 14 says not to. but if you want to blatantly ignore it. go right ahead.

i do not believe in teaching that its ok to drink alcohol. but to judge a person because they drink it?

just because they say they drink in moderation - doesn't mean they are teaching others.
---

These two quotes contradict one another, don't they?

Besides, God is not a respector of persons. He is not going to tell one person it is ok to drink beer or wine and another they can't drink it.

He tells all to stay away from it. Proverbs 23:31

no they dont.
you are right to say that God is not a respecter of persons. but the thing is - every person is not the same - God knows where our hearts, minds and souls are at - and if someone is going to be on the verge of being drunk if they take even a sip - and God tells them not to.
its no different in a situation where God knows the heart, mind and sould of another where if he took a sip he wouldn't be tempted to be drunk.

proverbs 23:31 is talking about getting drunk off of an excess of wine. read it all in context.
---

at the last supper - webdog - you explained this long time ago - that in fresh grape juice right from the vine - that there is yeast in the juice from the grapes (wikipedia) - and when it is fermented - that the yeast dies. (please correct me if im wrong here)

yeast is leaven. is leaven allowed during the passover?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

having eyes to see, they see not; having ears to hear, they hear not

taken in their own deceit