Is effeminacy a problem?

[DiamondLady]

I disagree.

1- Some physical movements and speech patterns are universally feminine and masculine.

Bruno is considered effeminate in most, if not all cultures.

2- Culture matters. If wearing gold and pearls and platting your hair is the distinctive practice of prostitutes in a particular culture, Paul says that women should not wear these things in that culture.

3- The way we walk and talk is related to our physical make-up. There is a reason why men and women in general walk and talk and move differently. Child bearing hips, more delicate wrist and joint make-up, estrogen vs testosterone levels MORE THAN CULTURE dictate how we walk, talk and move.

I contend that when healthy men walk, talk and move like girls- it is voluntary. By voluntary I mean that they would naturally walk distinctively like men were it not for psychological factors (they may have been trained to walk like a woman from birth up by being influenced by women, etc...)

Therefore this is not a matter relegated to subjectivity.

I'm waiting on an example of an openly heterosexual man that you feel exemplifies your thesis of actions and voice that a heterosexual man has that can be changed by walking differently, talking differently, wearing different clothing. The two examples you gave are comedians. They do something for a laugh. Doesn't mean they're that way in real life. Ever see Sacha Baron Cohen's wife??? Her name is Isla Fisher. Harvey Fierstein is openly gay. Neither would be examples I'd use to indicate what should be changed by an effeminate heterosexual male.


Also, you keep harping on the way men and women walk. A woman whose shoulders and hips are large from birth is going to walk differently from a woman, like me, who is 4'9" tall and is petite boned. I have a girlfriend who is 5'9". I have to RUN to keep up with her normal walking pace! I take three steps for every one of her steps.
Ever watch a pregnant woman walk? That's not a feminine walk either. Every woman who's been pregnant will admit they walk like a duck. YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT!!!

What about the voice?? How can a man change his voice? What would you have him change? BE SPECIFIC, not just the generalities you've been giving.

SPECIFIC means giving precise examples of what you would have someone do to change.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Post 137 was the post that prompted my first request that you list mannerisms that are universally seen as effeminate.

So, give me a list of specific actions, mannerisms, etc. that are universally seen as effeminate?

Why should he? It is not as though Luke's statements are unintelligible except he furnish specific examples....This, to me, is a sort of way of debating, without having to actually debate, by making him waste time doing your research or thinking for you. Reading Luke's posts...I contend most people have at least very general, but often quite specific, examples which immediately come to mind.....in fact they are often furnished by those who are arguing against his posts.

Watch the trailer to "Bruno" (which he already posted). This game of pretending we are simply confused by what Luke means should not continue to be entertained any farther......We know what he means....Sacha Baron Cohen knows what he means....hence the obvious intent to humor in the film.....Note especially the cut-scene where Bruno (at Sears) says "You may not believe this....but I am gay" and then notice the look the salesman gives him. Would YOU not get that joke? You would, we almost all do.

 

[DiamondLady]

Why should he? It is not as though Luke's statements are unintelligible except he furnish specific examples....This, to me, is a sort of way of debating, without having to actually debate, by making him waste time doing your research or thinking for you. Reading Luke's posts...I contend most people have at least very general, but often quite specific, examples which immediately come to mind.....in fact they are often furnished by those who are arguing against his posts.

Watch the trailer to "Bruno" (which he already posted). This game of pretending we are simply confused by what Luke means should not continue to be entertained any farther......We know what he means....Sacha Baron Cohen knows what he means....hence the obvious intent to humor in the film.....Note especially the cut-scene where Bruno (at Sears) says "You may not believe this....but I am gay" and then notice the look the salesman gives him. Would YOU not get that joke? You would, we almost all do.

The point is, however, that the example of Sacha Baron Cohen is a character he is playing...someone who is plainly gay. Harvey Fierstein is GAY. He's talking about heterosexuals who he sees as having effeminate qualities. We're asking him to give examples of a quality that a person COULD change. Not a characteristic they're born with, like bone structure or voice but something that a person CAN change. He's yet to give one single example and has backpedaled on many of his statements throughout, having to agree with us that a person can not change their bone structure, etc.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Why should he? It is not as though Luke's statements are unintelligible except he furnish specific examples....This, to me, is a sort of way of debating, without having to actually debate, by making him waste time doing your research or thinking for you. Reading Luke's posts...I contend most people have at least very general, but often quite specific, examples which immediately come to mind.....in fact they are often furnished by those who are arguing against his posts.

He made a statement that some gestures, etc. are universal. All I want to know is what gestures. He made the statement, so he must have some idea of what those actions, gestures, etc. So, I will continue to wait for an answer.

Watch the trailer to "Bruno" (which he already posted). This game of pretending we are simply confused by what Luke means should not continue to be entertained any farther......We know what he means....Sacha Baron Cohen knows what he means....hence the obvious intent to humor in the film.....Note especially the cut-scene where Bruno (at Sears) says "You may not believe this....but I am gay" and then notice the look the salesman gives him. Would YOU not get that joke? You would, we almost all do.

His trailer does not answer or give examples of universals. If he is makes such statements, he should be able to back them up with specifics.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The two examples you gave are comedians. They do something for a laugh. Doesn't mean they're that way in real life.

Of course....but their humor has a near universal appeal because it is easily understood. Isn't rule one of humor often said to be that humor has to be (even loosely) based on reality or fact to be humorous? Cohen's character in Bruno is a fictitious character designed to be humorous by mimicking some very real effiminate mannerisms. There would be no humor to it if it were not nearly Universally understood for what it was....Asking for more and more specifics is an unnecessarry waste of time for him. I generally agree with Luke's contentions in this thread...but agree or disagree, it is useless to continue to attempt to pretend that his examples are unintelligible....

Some on this board are acting as though the very word "effiminate" has no meaning....it apparently does, and people know (generally) when something is "effiminate" or not. When you hear that word....then simply take the images which immediately pop into your mind.....and your examples are right there.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

He made a statement that some gestures, etc. are universal. All I want to know is what gestures. He made the statement, so he must have some idea of what those actions, gestures, etc. So, I will continue to wait for an answer.



His trailer does not answer or give examples of universals. If he is makes such statements, he should be able to back them up with specifics.

The entire film is an example of specifics....I have not seen the film myself....but I watched the trailer...."Bruno" is the very definition of what Luke speaks of....feigning ignorance is dis-ingenuous, and attempting to furnish further "specifics" would be a waste of his time.

 

[abcgrad94]

Either a person is DELIBERATELY trying to act like the opposite gender, or not. So if it's not deliberate, why assume the person is "acting gay?" It's subjective, based on our own opinions of what is masculine or feminine.

 

[DiamondLady]

Of course....but their humor has a near universal appeal because it is easily understood. Isn't rule one of humor often said to be that humor has to be (even loosely) based on reality or fact to be humorous? Cohen's character in Bruno is a fictitious character designed to be humorous by mimicking some very real effiminate mannerisms. There would be no humor to it if it were not nearly Universally understood for what it was....Asking for more and more specifics is an unnecessarry waste of time for him. I generally agree with Luke's contentions in this thread...but agree or disagree, it is useless to continue to attempt to pretend that his examples are unintelligible....

Some on this board are acting as though the very word "effiminate" has no meaning....it apparently does, and people know (generally) when something is "effiminate" or not. When you hear that word....then simply take the images which immediately pop into your mind.....and your examples are right there.

HOS...yes, the comedy has universal appeal, yes the comedy is based on the reality of GAY PEOPLE! Luke is not talking about gay people. He's specifically speaking of heterosexuals. That is why we're asking him what he thinks a heterosexual should change in their walk, talk, way they hold their head,etc.....things that are not innate by birth like the breadth of their shoulders. He has not been able to succinctly tell us one single thing that a person is able to change about themselves. A persons walk is based upon their bone structure, the width of their hips, their feet. Yes, a person can affect a walk (I remember when the AA community had a little hip hop bounce to their walk that they stopped doing with the white community adopted it.) My niece used to mimic a character from Father of the Bride played by Martin Short...we used to crack up, but that wasn't her normal demeanor. Luke is speaking of normal, everyday demeanor and we keep asking him for examples of things that a person can change about themselves, from his first post....walk, speech, holding the head.

I'm still waiting some 200-odd posts later.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The entire film is an example of specifics....I have not seen the film myself....but I watched the trailer...."Bruno" is the very definition of what Luke speaks of....feigning ignorance is dis-ingenuous, and attempting to furnish further "specifics" would be a waste of his time.

So, tell me the specifics shown in the film that are universal, i.e. are effeminate in all cultures all over the world. Luke said this is not about being gay ... so why reference a clip about gays?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

HOS...yes, the comedy has universal appeal, yes the comedy is based on the reality of GAY PEOPLE! Luke is not talking about gay people. He's specifically speaking of heterosexuals. That is why we're asking him what he thinks a heterosexual should change in their walk, talk, way they hold their head,etc.....things that are not innate by birth like the breadth of their shoulders. He has not been able to succinctly tell us one single thing that a person is able to change about themselves. A persons walk is based upon their bone structure, the width of their hips, their feet. Yes, a person can affect a walk (I remember when the AA community had a little hip hop bounce to their walk that they stopped doing with the white community adopted it.) My niece used to mimic a character from Father of the Bride played by Martin Short...we used to crack up, but that wasn't her normal demeanor. Luke is speaking of normal, everyday demeanor and we keep asking him for examples of things that a person can change about themselves, from his first post....walk, speech, holding the head.

I'm still waiting some 200-odd posts later.

Then pretend that "Bruno" is NOT GAY. Are you suggesting that there is no such thing as a person who exhibits many of those characteristics or mannerisms who is not? Decidedly, there are such people...people who are indeed "effiminate" who act "effiminate" and are yet, not in fact, homosexual.

The actor HIMSELF who portrays "Bruno" is indeed acting "effiminate" is he not? Unless that actor is indeed gay...then the actor in that film is the very specific example you speak of.... or perhaps Martin Short in "Father of the Bride"...someone who is exhibiting specific "effiminate" mannerisms etc... who is not, in fact, gay. I do not know myself....I expect I could find out if I spent 2 mins. bothering to Google him...I expect you could as well.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

So, tell me the specifics shown in the film that are universal, i.e. are effeminate in all cultures all over the world. Luke said this is not about being gay ... so why reference a clip about gays?

So, tell me the specifics shown in the film that are universal, i.e. are effeminate in all cultures all over the world.

I suspect Luke knows how this trick works....."Society Does" type of relativism.....He will grant you some "specifics" and one particular obscure and possibly only Historical "civilization" (which would probably be better defined as...[group of savages]) such as the Fuegians will be cited by you as the counter-example which "proves" that Luke's example is not indeed "Universal". It wouldn't prove your point though....It would (to the normal person) serve as the "exception which proves the rule". It would be a waste of Luke's time....
If you want specifics CTB...all you would have to do is to read some of the examples already posed by Luke's detractors on this thread, who have furnished some examples of "effiminiate" mannerisms for all of us to read. Or, you could consult your own mind. where I think you already know they exist.

 

[Luke2427]

Of course....but their humor has a near universal appeal because it is easily understood. Isn't rule one of humor often said to be that humor has to be (even loosely) based on reality or fact to be humorous? Cohen's character in Bruno is a fictitious character designed to be humorous by mimicking some very real effiminate mannerisms. There would be no humor to it if it were not nearly Universally understood for what it was....Asking for more and more specifics is an unnecessarry waste of time for him. I generally agree with Luke's contentions in this thread...but agree or disagree, it is useless to continue to attempt to pretend that his examples are unintelligible....

Some on this board are acting as though the very word "effiminate" has no meaning....it apparently does, and people know (generally) when something is "effiminate" or not. When you hear that word....then simply take the images which immediately pop into your mind.....and your examples are right there.

Thanks. And I do think I have been clear enough. I'm not going to waste any more time pointing out the obvious.
And you're right. I think this is designed to distract rather than debate.

 

[DiamondLady]

Thanks. And I do think I have been clear enough. I'm not going to waste any more time pointing out the obvious.
And you're right. I think this is designed to distract rather than debate.

I love how, when someone clearly realizes they've been defeated in a debate they become defensive and claim the other side is distracting the subject.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[webdog]

Nobody has addresses Jacob yet, one of the more effeminate men in the Bible.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I love how, when someone clearly realizes they've been defeated in a debate they become defensive and claim the other side is distracting the subject.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Agree with you.

I wasted a few minutes watching the clip. I saw nothing I consider humor in this and surely I will not waste time watching more of Bruno. I see nothing wrong in a straight male having mannerisms that others consider feminine. So what? I do see something wrong in a person referencing such trash as the trailer cited in this thread. Oh well ................ :tonofbricks:

 

[Arbo]

Here is an example.

No one is talking about homosexuality in this whole thread.

You do realise, don't you, that Harvey Fierstein is openly homosexual?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Nobody has addresses Jacob yet, one of the more effeminate men in the Bible.

Very well then....my understanding (the quick version) is that the entire point of the Jacob/Esau story is that for the most part at least...Jacob was in almost every way...to include in fact, his mannerisms...his back-stabbing nature et.al. the precise definition of the almost most unlikeable and unlovable example of someone to look up to. There is an ongoing theme in Genesis and the whole of Scripture, of the younger brother above the older...Seth vs. Cain. Jacob vs. Esau, David vs. his brothers. It does not exactly escape my notice that Isaac (and I think most people by extension) would prefer Esau to Jacob any day of the week. The problem was that Esau was the self-made man. The better man, but the self-made one, and yes, that means, the better definition of what a man ought to be.

What Jacob had going for him, was that he recognized this.....Jacob would lie, cheat, steal, and even argue and fight with God himself.....and refuse to let him go.."except thou bless me".

That was Jacob's heart...Jacob saw and owned his weaknesses and failures, and would, if necessary, attempt to fight with God himself....to demand God's blessing. Jacob couldn't have cared less what God's perfect will was. Jacob would fight with God, physically if necessary (or an angel of his) to get what he wanted, whether his purposes were noble or ignoble. Jacob was not a Calvinist. Jacob could care less what God wanted...Jacob wanted what Jacob wanted, and Jacob knew that God and God alone could give him what he wanted, and he could never procure it himself in his powers alone. Jacob was not to be celebrated for his manly demeanor, Esau was. Jacob was not to be celebrated for his possibly effiminate demeanor. He is celebrated for his humble reliance upon God to meet his needs, nay, even his desires. God honored that faith, as God honors the faith of all who call and rely upon him.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Thanks. And I do think I have been clear enough. I'm not going to waste any more time pointing out the obvious.
And you're right. I think this is designed to distract rather than debate.

YUPPP!!! it only serves to distract.

 

[TadQueasy]

Nobody has addresses Jacob yet, one of the more effeminate men in the Bible.

That is because it goes against the agenda of the thread.

 

[Luke2427]

Either a person is DELIBERATELY trying to act like the opposite gender, or not. So if it's not deliberate, why assume the person is "acting gay?" It's subjective, based on our own opinions of what is masculine or feminine.

This yields the point.

If it IS deliberate then you admit that there are gestures and movements that are distinctly feminine.

You are admitting that someone is trying to appear feminine which yields that there is a such thing appearing feminine.

Now to the original question. Is it okay for a man to act the way that you recognize is distinctly feminine- yes, deliberately. As a matter of fact, if the man is healthy it HAS to be deliberate which in my opinion makes the behavior worse.