Is effeminacy a problem?

[Luke2427]

Nobody has addresses Jacob yet, one of the more effeminate men in the Bible.

Yes we did.

We noted that there is nothing in Bible language at all to indicate that he is at all feminine.

There is no reason to think that Jacob is feminine just because he was not hairy, liked to cook and did not hunt.

Millions upon millions are the men throughout history who bore those same characteristics but walked, talked, moved and behaved perfectly masculine.

 

[Luke2427]

HOS...yes, the comedy has universal appeal, yes the comedy is based on the reality of GAY PEOPLE! Luke is not talking about gay people. He's specifically speaking of heterosexuals.

But I am clearly talking about heterosexual people who do walk, talk and move to a greater, identical or somewhat lesser degree like Bruno.

Numerous people have admitted to knowing people like this. If you've never known anyone like this who is not gay, I dare say that you are in the minority.

That is why we're asking him what he thinks a heterosexual should change in their walk, talk, way they hold their head,etc.....things that are not innate by birth like the breadth of their shoulders. He has not been able to succinctly tell us one single thing that a person is able to change about themselves.

Yes I have and constantly.

I have said REPEATEDLY that a healthy man does not HAVE to walk, talk and move like Bruno or Harvey Fierstein.

I am contending that he absolutely SHOULD NOT- particularly if he is a Christian.

A persons walk is based upon their bone structure, the width of their hips, their feet. Yes, a person can affect a walk

It is one or the other. Either a person absolutely cannot change the way they walk due to their bone structure or they CAN affect the way they walk.

Which is it?

Now, if there are people whose bone structure FORCES them to walk a certain way- who could hold that against them.

But I have NEVER met a man whose bone structure FORCED him to walk like a woman- and I doubt you have either.

When a healthy man walks like a woman it is an acquired habit.

He should kick that habit with ALL fervency.

 

[Luke2427]

That is because it goes against the agenda of the thread.

Another drive-by post.

what agenda?

 

[abcgrad94]

This yields the point.

If it IS deliberate then you admit that there are gestures and movements that are distinctly feminine.

You are admitting that someone is trying to appear feminine which yields that there is a such thing appearing feminine.

Now to the original question. Is it okay for a man to act the way that you recognize is distinctly feminine- yes, deliberately. As a matter of fact, if the man is healthy it HAS to be deliberate which in my opinion makes the behavior worse.

Luke, would you please clarify once and for all whether or not your talking about a gay person or a heterosexual? You aren't getting through here, in fact, your posts get more confusing by the minute.

OF COURSE homos act like the opposite gender. I don't believe anyone here is disputing that. But we're talking about heteros here. You're saying that heteros who walk, talk and dress in a manner contrary to what you deem as masculine or feminine is wrong. I'm saying, if they are straight, they aren't purposely doing that--it's just your opinion. Because if they did it on purpose, they wouldn't be straight in the first place!

 

[abcgrad94]

Another drive-by post.

At least Tad's posts make sense. :laugh::laugh:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, would you please clarify once and for all whether or not your talking about a gay person or a heterosexual? You aren't getting through here, in fact, your posts get more confusing by the minute.

Perhaps you might consider that your inability to comprehend is fully due to a deficiency in your reading and not my writing.

I have said REPEATEDLY and AGAIN from the OP forward that I am NOT TALKING ABOUT A HOMOSEXUAL.


There is no way that you needing to ask that is in ANY way my fault.

I AM talking about people who are heterosexual who act in many ways similar to many of the ways many homosexuals act.

Numerous people have testified that they have known heterosexuals who displayed feminine characteristics.

The question is for the thousandth time- is this perfectly okay?

OF COURSE homos act like the opposite gender. I don't believe anyone here is disputing that. But we're talking about heteros here. You're saying that heteros who walk, talk and dress in a manner contrary to what you deem as masculine or feminine is wrong. I'm saying, if they are straight, they aren't purposely doing that--it's just your opinion.

If they are not PURPOSELY doing it- why are they doing it?

It may be that they have picked up this behavior accidentally. But they still ought to be made mindful of it and put forth a sincere effort to curtail any effeminate mannerisms they have.

I cannot BELIEVE ANYBODY would disagree with that.

I absolutely cannot believe that a BAPTIST would.

It's utterly AMAZING to me.

 

[Luke2427]

At least Tad's posts make sense. :laugh::laugh:

no they don't.

They make unwarranted claims which is the EPITOME of not making sense.

They claim I have an agenda without making a case for that claim.

It is HIGHLY inflammatory and insulting but the worst thing about it is it is VERY cowardly.

ANYBODY who can TYPE from a 5 year old to a lunatic can pop in and hurl unwarranted claims.

People with integrity and intelligence feel compelled to SUPPORT those claims with specific evidences and arguments.

Frankly, to NOT do so is not only rather unChristian- it is quite trashy.

 

[webdog]

Yes we did.

We noted that there is nothing in Bible language at all to indicate that he is at all feminine.

There is no reason to think that Jacob is feminine just because he was not hairy, liked to cook and did not hunt.

Millions upon millions are the men throughout history who bore those same characteristics but walked, talked, moved and behaved perfectly masculine.

Do you know the historical context of what "sitting in the tents" means? If not you should study it out further.

 

[abcgrad94]

If they are not PURPOSELY doing it- why are they doing it?

It may be that they have picked up this behavior accidentally. But they still ought to be made mindful of it and put forth a sincere effort to curtail any effeminate mannerisms they have.

Dude, calm down. You're going to give yourself a stroke here.:smilewinkgrin:

To answer your question of "why are they doing it" the answer is that they AREN'T. It's your subjective opinion based on what you believe proper gender behavior to be. That's the whole point.

 

[TadQueasy]

no they don't.

They make unwarranted claims which is the EPITOME of not making sense.

They claim I have an agenda without making a case for that claim.

It is HIGHLY inflammatory and insulting but the worst thing about it is it is VERY cowardly.

ANYBODY who can TYPE from an 5 year old to a lunatic can pop in and hurl unwarranted claims.

People with integrity and intelligence feel compelled to SUPPORT those claims with specific evidences and arguments.

Frankly, to NOT do so is not only rather unChristian- it is quite trashy.

You call me a coward, unChristian, and quite trashy, yet I am the one who makes inflammatory and insulting posts?

I guess I forgot to attend the Luke's guide to posting on this board before I signed up. Thanks for the tips though, but I will post how I want, when I want, and why I want. If you do not like it then feel free to ignore me.

 

[Luke2427]

Dude, calm down. You're going to give yourself a stroke here.:smilewinkgrin:

To answer your question of "why are they doing it" the answer is that they AREN'T. It's your subjective opinion based on what you believe proper gender behavior to be. That's the whole point.

You can't have it both ways.

You can't admit that homosexuals DO act in a real way that is effeminate on one hand...
and then pretend on the other hand that there is no real effeminacy because it is only a matter of opinion.

If it is true, as you admit, that many homosexual men do act effeminately then it is not a matter of opinion. It is true that there is a way in which some men can act which is clearly effeminate. You conceded this already.

Now what others and I am trying to tell you is that there are men who have wives and children that act the same way that these men who are homosexuals act. They do not sleep with other men like these homosexuals but they DO walk, talk and move like them.

You may be so isolated that you have never seen heterosexual men who walk, talk and act like homosexual men- but I dare say that MOST of the WORLD HAS seen this many times.

The question is this: is it okay for a heterosexual man to walk, talk and act like Bruno even though he does not sleep with other men?

The question is very simple.

I am not being in the least bit ambiguous.

You can answer-YES. it is perfectly fine for any man to walk, talk and act like a woman or a homosexual as long as he is not ACTUALLY a homosexual

OR...

You can answer- NO. A man ought to seek to walk, talk and act in a way that is distinctively NOT feminine and homosexual-like.

This is not complicated, Sis.

 

[Luke2427]

Do you know the historical context of what "sitting in the tents" means? If not you should study it out further.

Why don't you enlighten us?

 

[convicted1]

The issue is subjective, Willis. As pointed out, who is the measure and standard of what is masculine enough? Are you that judge? Is Luke? And what of cultural norms? In Turkey men hold hands or walk arm in arm. That is not seen as 'gay' or non-masculine in that culture. Clothes are also different in various cultures. Sometimes high voices and lisps can't be helped. These are the issues being discussed here.

I think we would all agree that a man dressing up like a woman (transvestite) is not acceptable.

However you want to say it, it boils down to this. Men are to act like men, and women like women. It is not in a man's nature to act feminine, nor is it in a woman's nature to act manly.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Luke asked: "The question is this: is it okay for a heterosexual man to walk, talk and act like Bruno even though he does not sleep with other men?"


If you mean gestures walking, hand movement, then the answer is it is all right if that is their natural way of expressing themselves. You may or may not like such expressions. I may or may not like such expressions. Makes no difference. If this is their natural way of expressing themselves it is all right.

Remember we are not talking sexual orientation here. We are talking about the natural way a person expresses through gestures, etc.

 

[Crabtownboy]

However you want to say it, it boils down to this. Men are to act like men, and women like women. It is not in a man's nature to act feminine, nor is it in a woman's nature to act manly.

By whose standard? Yours? Mine? Russian standards? Chinese standards? English standards? Whose standards???

 

[convicted1]

By whose standard? Yours? Mine? Russian standards? Chinese standards? English standards? Whose standards???

This may be poor eixegesis(sp?) on my part, but this is how I understand it. God is not an author of confusion. When He made man and woman, He made them different from each other, even in the way they act. Now, if it is okay for two types of people to act like each other, then why did He make us with different natures? Now, this is entirely my opinion, and if any disagree with me, that is fine, but God did not make us so that we could take on each other's natures.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke asked: "The question is this: is it okay for a heterosexual man to walk, talk and act like Bruno even though he does not sleep with other men?"


If you mean gestures walking, hand movement, then the answer is it is all right if that is their natural way of expressing themselves. You may or may not like such expressions. I may or may not like such expressions. Makes no difference. If this is their natural way of expressing themselves it is all right.

Remember we are not talking sexual orientation here. We are talking about the natural way a person expresses through gestures, etc.

It is not natural. That's my whole contention. There is a reason the VAST, VAST majority of men do not walk, talk and move like Bruno.

Why? Because it is not the NATURAL way for men to walk, talk and move.

This is cross cultural. Bruno is effeminate in the eyes of every culture- Chinese, Russian, etc...

Most people associate these mannerisms in a man as a possible indication that the person is a homosexual. The reason they do this is because the vast majority of the time people who exhibit those mannerisms ARE homosexual.

This does not mean that ALL homosexuals exhibit these mannerisms- though most probably do.

This does not mean that ALL who exhibit these mannerisms ARE homosexual- that's the whole point of this thread.

But there are NUMEROUS mannerisms that are UNIVERSALLY recognized as effeminate.

That men ought to embrace masculinity should not even be a debate among Baptists.

ALL of us ought to heartily agree that men should carry themselves like men as much as is possible.

You'd be against a Christian man walking around in public with a prom dress on, would you not?

What would be your reasons?

 

[Crabtownboy]

This may be poor eixegesis(sp?) on my part, but this is how I understand it. God is not an author of confusion. When He made man and woman, He made them different from each other, even in the way they act. Now, if it is okay for two types of people to act like each other, then why did He make us with different natures? Now, this is entirely my opinion, and if any disagree with me, that is fine, but God did not make us so that we could take on each other's natures.

I agree God made male and female. We are different, especially biologically. However, that says nothing about how we gesture, speak, etc.

So, again, buy whose standard do we judge? What is the gold standard of action?

Remember Jesus was in a Jewish culture, not an American. I do not believe we have much information on what constituted effeminacy in that culture. Also, I do not believe he spoke to this issue at all ... thus was a person is born with is all right.

The question is not whether we like or dislike effeminacy or not. Our liking or disliking an action does not, by itself, make it right or wrong.

 

[Crabtownboy]

It is not natural. That's my whole contention. There is a reason the VAST, VAST majority of men do not walk, talk and move like Bruno.

In your eyes it is not natural. That does not make it not natural to a specific person. Live with it.

Why? Because it is not the NATURAL way for men to walk, talk and move.

Your opinion.

This is cross cultural. Bruno is effeminate in the eyes of every culture- Chinese, Russian, etc...

Unprovable. Your opinion again.

Most people associate these mannerisms in a man as a possible indication that the person is a homosexual. The reason they do this is because the vast majority of the time people who exhibit those mannerisms ARE homosexual.

You state over and over you are not asking about homosexuals, and yet you bring it up over and over. A mannerism does not make a person homosexual.

This does not mean that ALL homosexuals exhibit these mannerisms- though most probably do.

Your opinion, unprovable.

This does not mean that ALL who exhibit these mannerisms ARE homosexual- that's the whole point of this thread.

I agree and an mannerism natural expressed is not a sin.

But there are NUMEROUS mannerisms that are UNIVERSALLY recognized as effeminate.

And yet you cannot state them.

That men ought to embrace masculinity should not even be a debate among Baptists.

Then why did you begin this thread?

ALL of us ought to heartily agree that men should carry themselves like men as much as is possible.

By whose standard? Yours?

You'd be against a Christian man walking around in public with a prom dress on, would you not?

I think it would look rather ridiculous in our culture.

So, should the Scots give up their kilts?
Should Greek men give up their traditional "skirts"?
Should Arab men give up their robes?
Should you give up your bathrobe. After all robes are feminine.

Jesus wore a robe? Did he sin by doing so?

Outside Western culture many it is not seen as feminine for a man to wear a skirt. Mannerisms differ also. What is seen as feminine in one may not be seen as feminine in another. Ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Roman men generally wore some form of tunic. Ancient Egyptians wore a wrap skirt, similar to sarongs.

The Anglo-Saxons and Normans wore skirted garments, as can be seen in the Bayeux Tapestry. These fashions continued well into the Middle Ages.

Luke, custom and times change. What is considered masculine or feminine changes from era to era.

 

[Luke2427]

This is how Webster defines the word "effeminate."

: having feminine qualities untypical of a man : not manly in appearance or manner

The dictionary recognizes that there is a MANNER which is "untypical of a man"

So does most of the rest of the world.

Anybody who pretends that Bruno's mannerisms are perfectly manly in any normal culture on EARTH has their head in the sand.

It's as simple as that.