Is effeminacy a problem?

[abcgrad94]

Do we agree that it is a problem when men are effeminate?

Of course. I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. The disagreement would come on one's definition of effeminate.

Now, in my opinion, effeminate would apply to any man who is PURPOSELY trying to act/look/seem like a woman. One's idea of this, though, is cultural, don't you think?

For example, I had a college professor who was elderly and who was a former marine. Whenever the young men had to "preach" for a class, this professor would automatically give a failing grade if the young man wore anything pink, like a pink shirt or a pink tie. His opinion of "effeminate" would greatly differ from mine.

 

[Skandelon]

I have a dear friend who has higher voice and a bit of a lisp...the kind often associated with those who are gay, but he is not. He is small, thin, pale, neat and single. He hates that some assume he is gay, but this is just who he is.

Would some suggest he disguise his voice, wear 'butch' looking clothes and grow a handle bar mustache (though I doubt he could)?

 

[menageriekeeper]

A leather jacket and hawg might could help that young man Skandelon! Real men ride Harleys right?

:laugh:

How much fun do you think we could have being the BB effeminate police? We could even set rules as to what font styles men and women are allowed to use. None of this genderless New Times Roman. The men need to be using a bold masculine font like "chapperel pro" and the women should be using a delicate, flowery font like "calibri".

Nooooooo, the BB doesn't allow for different font styles........aaaaaahhhhhhhh.....the BB font styles are genderless..........

btw, I wouldn't carry either of those bags. I have a black belt in karate, don't need to knock the muggers down with a purse the weight of a cinder block.

Ya'll make it very hard to respond to this thread seriously. Don't we have better things to do than go around guessing other's s*xuality based on the clothes they were and the bags they carry?

 

[webdog]

Wasn't Jacob effeminate in a way, particularly when in comparison to Esau? One was a sportsman, the other "sitting in tents". Who did God use?

 

[Winman]

Wow. Some of the last several posts just blow my mind. The ignorance that exists in some quarters is just amazing to me.

Why is this ignorance? I wrote about "perceptions" of what is effeminate. Some people believe that wearing a kilt is effeminate, some believe that wearing certain fashions is effeminate. How does that make me ignorant for pointing that out?

Explain what is ignorant or wrong about pointing this out.

 

[Luke2427]

Who do you propose the judge should be? I mean, is it really wrong for a man to carry a handbag? I would not do it, because that is the culture I was brought up in, but another fellow may be brought up in a culture where it is acceptable.




I wouldn't be caught dead wearing a kilt, but in the UK it is not considered unmanly whatsoever. So, what is effeminate can be a matter of perspective.

It's like I mentioned earlier, I work with a young fellow that was brought up in a very wealthy home. He acts what most people would call "prissy". Many rich folks act like this. He dresses in a very tight fitting, "European" style of dress as well. In the old days they would have called him a "dandy". But he is completely straight and has a girlfriend.

Who am I to tell this guy how to dress? I wouldn't dress like he does, but it is not hurting anyone. He is a nice fellow, very smart, an engineer. He is well liked by everyone, a terrific guy. His very genteel manners are a result of his upbringing. He is as straight as you or I.

Edit- To give you an idea what this guy dresses like, it is very similar to this;



He also drives a little sports car. When he first came to work, lots of folks thought he was gay. But he is not.

Gay or not gay has nothing to do with this conversation.

The point is not whether or not a man who behaves effeminately is gay.

The question is whether or not it is ok for a man to be effeminate even if he is not gay.

 

[Luke2427]

I have a dear friend who has higher voice and a bit of a lisp...the kind often associated with those who are gay, but he is not. He is small, thin, pale, neat and single. He hates that some assume he is gay, but this is just who he is.

Would some suggest he disguise his voice, wear 'butch' looking clothes and grow a handle bar mustache (though I doubt he could)?

I would suggest that the way men walk, talk and move should be distinct from the way women and girls do these things.

I would suggest that it is more of a struggle for some men to be distinct from women in the way they do these things, but that they ought to put forth an effort to be masculine and not feminine.

I would suggest that it is more of a struggle for some men to control their temper than for others. Should we therefore conclude that these men should just be who they are and not put forth the effort to be patient with others?

Just so, a man who struggles with masculinity ought to put forth the effort to be masculine.

And I would suggest that making excuses for a man who is feminine lets him off the hook concerning his responsibility to be masculine just like making excuses for men who are short tempered causes them to feel less inclined to be what they ought to be.

I would suggest that none of us just throw up our hands and say, "Let everybody be whatever they want to be as long as they don't hurt anybody else! If a woman behaves butch- GREAT! If a man is very girly- WONDERFUL! Ka Sara Sara!"

I would suggest that fathers teach their boys to be manly and that mothers teach their girls to be feminine.

 

[DiamondLady]

I would suggest that the way men walk, talk and move should be distinct from the way women and girls do these things.

I would suggest that it is more of a struggle for some men to be distinct from women in the way they do these things, but that they ought to put forth an effort to be masculine and not feminine.

<snipped>
I would suggest that fathers teach their boys to be manly and that mothers teach their girls to be feminine.

What these are asking you Luke is, WHOSE idea of "masculine" should we teach? Standards are largely cultural and regional, as well as generational. For instance, manly men in the Regency period wore brightly colored skin tight pants, ruffles on their shirts and cuffs, heavily embroidered waistcoats, carried lace hankies, strongly perfumed and wore powdered wigs. Frontiersmen like Daniel Boone might have worn coonskin caps and fringed pants and shirts but when he dressed up for the ladies it was quite a different picture. Men in the Middle East wear robes (you'd probably call them dresses)

Is it wrong for a man to carry a bag? Do you limit your yes to a particular kind/type? Is it manly to carry your wife's purse for her? How about changing diapers? Is that masculine?

Conversely, what's feminine? Is it wrong for a woman to know how to wield a hammer and screwdriver. How about install a wood floor? Know how to repair a toilet? Or unstop the kitchen sink? Should a woman only sit on a satin pillow and eat bon bons all day?

 

[freeatlast]

I would say in all this that there would have to be a clear indication that the person was actively seeking to promote the other gender within that particular culture, not just some individual mannerism that does not set well with another person.

 

[Luke2427]

What these are asking you Luke is, WHOSE idea of "masculine" should we teach? Standards are largely cultural and regional, as well as generational. For instance, manly men in the Regency period wore brightly colored skin tight pants, ruffles on their shirts and cuffs, heavily embroidered waistcoats, carried lace hankies, strongly perfumed and wore powdered wigs. Frontiersmen like Daniel Boone might have worn coonskin caps and fringed pants and shirts but when he dressed up for the ladies it was quite a different picture. Men in the Middle East wear robes (you'd probably call them dresses)

Is it wrong for a man to carry a bag? Do you limit your yes to a particular kind/type? Is it manly to carry your wife's purse for her? How about changing diapers? Is that masculine?

Conversely, what's feminine? Is it wrong for a woman to know how to wield a hammer and screwdriver. How about install a wood floor? Know how to repair a toilet? Or unstop the kitchen sink? Should a woman only sit on a satin pillow and eat bon bons all day?

Good questions.

First of all, culture does have some say in the way we define femininity and masculinity. It does not have ALL of the say, mind you, but it does have some of the say. This is clear in Scripture.

Paul told the Corinthians that men should not have long hair and women should have long hair and he cited culture as his justification for this.
As most of us know, the point Paul was making was not that women should never cut their hair short in any age and any place. The point was that in that culture long hair represented something as well as short hair and the Corinthian Christians should observe what those things represented appropriately.

This is one of numerous examples where Scripture recognizes that contemporary culture has SOME say in how we define many things.

Since the attire of our nation's forefathers with the ruffles and tights, etc... was considered to be perfectly manly in that culture at that time, then their attire was appropriately masculine.

2. Note that I have not one time said anything about the way people dress from the OP to this post. I have avoided this on purpose.

3. There are characteristics of men and women that are distinctive to each sex in every culture.
Men and women are built very differently by design of our Maker.

The physique of men and women are very different. This difference has much to do with how we walk and talk and move.
Child bearing hips vs broad shoulders, delicacy vs ruggedness, beauty vs strength, estrogen vs testosterone- these are universal; they traverse all cultures. It is not that women cannot be strong, for example, but it is that they are not marked for their physical strength among the sexes. These are complimentary distinctions. They are part of the Maker's brilliant and benevolent design.

They translate to a particular distinctness in the way we walk and talk and move. The muscularity and density of the joints is different. The proportionality of the figure is different by God's intentional design.

Men and women should EMBRACE this distinctness as part of the wisdom of God as an act of submission to him concerning the roles he evidently assigned AND as an act of worship to Him for his brilliance and goodness in his creation.

I do think that when women seek to be as strong as men and men seek to be as beautiful as women that it is rebellion against the wisdom of God. I think when a man has an excessive concern with personal beauty, he is saying that he does not like the roll in this world that God designed him for. I think that when a woman has an excessive concern with being tough and strong then she is saying she opposes the design of the Maker for her.

Everything we do communicates something. We communicate with facial expressions, postures, movement, etc... The way a man walks communicates something, for example. A man can communicate confidence, arrogance, humility, insecurity, anger, happiness and all kinds of other things simply by the way he carries himself when he walks.

When he walks in a way that is distinctly masculine he communicates a satisfaction in the Maker's design of him as a man. This is true of how he talks, moves, etc... as well.

The same is true with a women.

 

[DiamondLady]

Good questions.

First of all, culture does have some say in the way we define femininity and masculinity. It does not have ALL of the say, mind you, but it does have some of the say. This is clear in Scripture.

<snipped> Men and women are built very differently by design of our Maker.

The physique of men and women are very different. This difference has much to do with how we walk and talk and move.
Child bearing hips vs broad shoulders, delicacy vs ruggedness, beauty vs strength, estrogen vs testosterone- these are universal; they traverse all cultures. It is not that women cannot be strong, for example, but it is that they are not marked for their physical strength among the sexes. These are complimentary distinctions. They are part of the Maker's brilliant and benevolent design.

They translate to a particular distinctness in the way we walk and talk and move. The muscularity and density of the joints is different. The proportionality of the figure is different by God's intentional design.

I feel like we're getting somewhere...I actually agree with almost all of what you wrote. What I've left here is what I'd like to discuss.

What about those men who aren't broad shouldered and rugged? What about women who ARE? Our exterminator is a perfect example of this. Broad shouldered, square bodied, tall, muscular.....she's a woman. From behind, and to watch her walk you'd never think her a woman. (just as a note, she is not gay...is married and has two great kids)

The contractor who laid our hardwood floors is the same....and is a woman. The guy who laid our carpeting was half her size and a good wind would have blown him over. (I will say he walked like a man though lol...but taking on appearance only)

As for sounding like a man....I've known women who sound like they're a baritone and men who sound like they're a soprano. Doesn't make her less feminine or him less masculine.

I think there needs to be other tests or standards, if you will, on which to base femininity and masculinity. Or maybe we just need to stop looking at those things and instead look at the heart.

 

[Luke2427]

I feel like we're getting somewhere...I actually agree with almost all of what you wrote. What I've left here is what I'd like to discuss.

What about those men who aren't broad shouldered and rugged? What about women who ARE? Our exterminator is a perfect example of this. Broad shouldered, square bodied, tall, muscular.....she's a woman. From behind, and to watch her walk you'd never think her a woman. (just as a note, she is not gay...is married and has two great kids)

The contractor who laid our hardwood floors is the same....and is a woman. The guy who laid our carpeting was half her size and a good wind would have blown him over. (I will say he walked like a man though lol...but taking on appearance only)

As for sounding like a man....I've known women who sound like they're a baritone and men who sound like they're a soprano. Doesn't make her less feminine or him less masculine.

I think there needs to be other tests or standards, if you will, on which to base femininity and masculinity. Or maybe we just need to stop looking at those things and instead look at the heart.

Only God can see the heart. We CANNOT look at the heart.
The heart is the root of the tree beneath the surface. The actions are the fruit of the tree above the surface.

The fruit of the tree reveals the root of the tree to those who cannot see it.

It is generally true that the heart and the actions are one and the same.

If in the heart there is a sincere embrace of God's designed roll for a person, it will manifest itself in their actions.

For example, in my heart I have embraced God's assigned roll for me as a preacher. That heart embrace plays out in my actions- I preach regularly.

If a man embraces his God assigned roll as a father in his heart it will manifest itself in his care for his children. His voluntary absenteeism is evidence that he is unwilling to accept the roll God assigned him as a father. His actions, more than his words COMMUNICATE what is in his heart. We don't just get to say, "You don't know his heart- don't judge him! Look at his heart- not how he behaves."

This is equally true of femininity and masculinity. Masculinity is some of the fruit of heart acceptance of God's assigned roll of manhood. Femininity is some of the fruit of heart acceptance of God's assigned roll of womanhood.

Are there exceptions? To almost EVERYTHING- certainly there are.

There are hermaphrodites- people born with male and female parts.

There are quadriplegics whose physical condition renders them totally incapable of communicating by their movement a glad acceptance of God's assigned roll for them.

Are there women who have to work much harder than other women at being feminine? Certainly. Should they try? That's the crux of this conversation. I think the answer is a big ABSOLUTELY.

Should we help young men and ladies in our ministries to embrace the distinctives of the sexes which God assigned them? Absolutely.

Should we just brush this whole issue off and pretend that a basically gender neutral society is just fine? Absolutely NOT!

We should teach and celebrate manliness in men- especially young men.

We should teach and celebrate femininity in women- especially young women.

 

[DiamondLady]

Only God can see the heart. We CANNOT look at the heart.
The heart is the root of the tree beneath the surface. The actions are the fruit of the tree above the surface.

The fruit of the tree reveals the root of the tree to those who cannot see it.

<snipped>Should we just brush this whole issue off and pretend that a basically gender neutral society is just fine? Absolutely NOT!

We should teach and celebrate manliness in men- especially young men.

We should teach and celebrate femininity in women- especially young women.

Certainly we should teach it, but we should not based masculinity or femininity upon the breadth of the shoulders, hips, timbre of the voice or the stride. There are other measurements. God did not create our exterminator a little delicate flower of a woman. She's a "pioneer" kind of woman (the one men liked because they could pull a plow, etc.). Doesn't make her less of a woman, and maybe not the magazine ideal of a woman, and doesn't make her less feminine, either. Conversely the scholarly, thin, "Wally Cox" kind of man is not any less masculine with his high pitched voice.

I think what the answer here is to model, for our children, what is right. Children learn by example.

 

[Luke2427]

Certainly we should teach it, but we should not based masculinity or femininity upon the breadth of the shoulders, hips, timbre of the voice or the stride. There are other measurements. God did not create our exterminator a little delicate flower of a woman. She's a "pioneer" kind of woman (the one men liked because they could pull a plow, etc.). Doesn't make her less of a woman, and maybe not the magazine ideal of a woman, and doesn't make her less feminine, either. Conversely the scholarly, thin, "Wally Cox" kind of man is not any less masculine with his high pitched voice.

I think what the answer here is to model, for our children, what is right. Children learn by example.

Your exterminator should seek to be feminine and should avoid being manly. She cannot control the breadth of her shoulders any more than a hermaphrodite can control his features. But she should not be given a pass to be just as manly as she pleases. This is especially true if her shoulders are broad because she has made them that way herself by taking on manly tasks.

We don't give arrogance a pass just because that may be a persons natural disposition. Neither should we accept effeminacy in men or manliness in women.

We lovingly guide people to be what God commands because he knows best.

By the way, Wally Cox has been largely rumored to have been gay in the closet. He may not have been gay, but the fact that it was an issue is more reason for Christian men to seek to behave distinctively masculine.

 

[abcgrad94]

Your exterminator should seek to be feminine and should avoid being manly.
This is especially true if her shoulders are broad because she has made them that way herself by taking on manly tasks.

"Manly tasks?" The "manly" stuff mentioned in the Bible talks about being the spiritual head of the home. It has nothing to do with chopping wood or lifting heavy hammers or changing the oil.

I completely disagree with your idea that certain people should "try harder" to appear feminine or masculine. This, again, is catering to, and judging, the outward appearance. Try harder for whom? Others who want to judge their outward appearance based on their own personal ideas of masculinity or femininity? Are you saying a broad-shouldered, horse-faced woman should wear more make up and wear dresses to better convince others that she's female? Wow. A small male with a high voice should dress in Rambo gear and big boots to prove he's not gay? That sounds like what you're saying.

What exactly do you mean by a "free pass?" Is that a "free pass" to our friendship, to accepting the person AS IS? Accepting them for the way their CREATOR made them? Unless they are openly dressing as the opposite gender, like a transvestite, using the other gender's restroom, or something else that openly defies the way God made them, I don't see your point at all.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hos, would you highly discourage parents allowing a daughter to be a 'tomboy'?

Would have to. On the one hand....I think (for children) we sort of "misidentify" what a tomboy is, which is to say. All children should be expected to be somewhat outdoorsey, and enjoy physical activities etc. But none-the-less, I still encourage distinctly "feminine" activities for my girls, and discourage what are distinctly "boyish" ones. We gotta be consistent.

 

[Luke2427]

"Manly tasks?" The "manly" stuff mentioned in the Bible talks about being the spiritual head of the home. It has nothing to do with chopping wood or lifting heavy hammers or changing the oil.

That's not true. It is not just being the spiritual head of the home that the Bible uses to define manhood.

I completely disagree with your idea that certain people should "try harder" to appear feminine or masculine. This, again, is catering to, and judging, the outward appearance.

Outward appearance matters. The Bible is full of exhortations to give attendance to how we live before the eyes of the world.

Try harder for whom?

God.

Others who want to judge their outward appearance based on their own personal ideas of masculinity or femininity? Are you saying a broad-shouldered, horse-faced woman should wear more make up and wear dresses to better convince others that she's female? Wow.

I am saying that Christian women ought to embrace femininity and avoid masculinity.
How ANYONE could disagree with that is beyond me.

A small male with a high voice should dress in Rambo gear and big boots to prove he's not gay? That sounds like what you're saying.

You can be small and masculine. I've said nothing that would give any thoughtful reader this impression.

What exactly do you mean by a "free pass?" Is that a "free pass" to our friendship, to accepting the person AS IS?

I made it very clear by comparing it to arrogance. Do you give arrogance a free pass?

Are you giving ME a free pass right now or are you challenging my thinking?
If you followed your own philosophy here then you would not have even written this post. You ought to just be a friend to me and accept me AS IS without contradicting me in any way.

Accepting them for the way their CREATOR made them?

That's the issue. All people should accept the rolls God made them to fill.

If God made a person a man, then he should seek to be masculine.
If God made a person a woman, then she should seek to be feminine.

Unless they are openly dressing as the opposite gender, like a transvestite, using the other gender's restroom, or something else that openly defies the way God made them, I don't see your point at all.

Dressing is not the only way a man can cause himself to appear feminine. Dressing is not all that matters.

He should no more seek to walk, talk and move like a woman than he should seek to dress like a woman.

He ought to be masculine in the way he dresses AND the way he walks, talks, etc...

He should avoid appearing feminine, not just in his dress, but in these other ways as well.

WHO could argue that there is not a particular way that one walks and talks, for examples, which is considered feminine or masculine?

A Christian man should should seek to be masculine like God made him to be.

 

[DiamondLady]

Your exterminator should seek to be feminine and should avoid being manly. She cannot control the breadth of her shoulders any more than a hermaphrodite can control his features. But she should not be given a pass to be just as manly as she pleases. This is especially true if her shoulders are broad because she has made them that way herself by taking on manly tasks.

We don't give arrogance a pass just because that may be a persons natural disposition. Neither should we accept effeminacy in men or manliness in women.

We lovingly guide people to be what God commands because he knows best.

By the way, Wally Cox has been largely rumored to have been gay in the closet. He may not have been gay, but the fact that it was an issue is more reason for Christian men to seek to behave distinctively masculine.

Okay, Luke. Just HOW should she SEEK to be more feminine? Should she go have plastic surgery to reduce the size of her shoulders, for instance? How does one CHANGE their basic body structure? I'm not talking about losing a few pounds but how does one lose a large bone structure or big feet? How does a man change a high pitched voice. (BTW a RUMOR that someone is gay or not should be immediately ignored and dismissed. Rumors are painful gossip and as Christians we should ignore them, not give them place or repeat them!)

What do you mean by "give her a pass?" I don't give her a pass for anything...she does the job we pay for, she keeps the bugs out of my house.

Personally, I think you are straining at a gnat while swallowing an elephant.

 

[Jerome]

[Your exterminator] cannot control the breadth of her shoulders any more than a hermaphrodite can control his features.

This is especially true if her shoulders are broad because she has made them that way herself by taking on manly tasks.

Huh?

So which is it?

 

[Luke2427]

Okay, Luke. Just HOW should she SEEK to be more feminine? Should she go have plastic surgery to reduce the size of her shoulders, for instance? How does one CHANGE their basic body structure?

You're not paying attention.

Did you not read where I said that she can no more control the breadth of her shoulders than a hermaphrodite can control his features?

(BTW a RUMOR that someone is gay or not should be immediately ignored and dismissed. Rumors are painful gossip and as Christians we should ignore them, not give them place or repeat them!)

That's not true either. We should care about whether or not we are giving people ammunition for rumors. How we appear before the eyes of the world is EXTREMELY important.

And as for listening to rumors- if a rumor comes to your attention that your heart doctor has been intentionally killing patients under surgery and you are scheduled to be under his knife next week- are you going to "immediately ignore and dismiss it"?

Rumors are not always "painful gossip." OFTEN times they are matters that we ABSOLUTELY should investigate.

What do you mean by "give her a pass?" I don't give her a pass for anything...she does the job we pay for, she keeps the bugs out of my house.

I mean that you should not conclude in your own heart that manliness in a woman is perfectly fine in the eyes of God.

You need a God-centered world view in which you believe people ought to seek to be what God made them to be.

If God made a person a man then he ought to seek to be manly.

As much as is reasonably possible he ought to walk, talk and behave like a man.

If he'd rather embrace walking and talking and acting like a woman- it ought to be a problem for you- even if he is a heterosexual.

That does not mean that you have to confront him, but it means that you, within yourself, believe that masculinity and femininity are not insignificant matters.

Personally, I think you are straining at a gnat while swallowing an elephant.

That's why I started the thread. I asked in the OP "Is effeminacy a problem?"

I certainly expected that some people would say it is a "gnat" issue that does not merit any attention.
I think it is tragic that so many Christian people feel that way today.

What elephant am I swallowing?