Is Everything Predestined?

[seekingthetruth]

jbh and EWF, I am flabbergasted by your posts here. I did not think that any Calvinists believed that any man could get saved. I thought Calvinism taught just the opposite.

John

 

[preacher4truth]

Ok, JBH, but dont Calvinists claim that only the elect have the ability to repent and come to Christ?

John

What does 2 Timothy 2:8-10 say, and who are 'they'.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But if God "allows" things to happen then that means that freewill is involved. if God doesn't make something happen, then man had to "choose" to make it happen.

Which is it? Does God allow man to have a freewill in that God "allows" things to happen that He deosnt control?.....or does God predestine everything and denies man a freewill?

If man doesnt have a freewill then God controls everything. If God doesnt control everything then man does indeed have a freewill.

John

Well he isnt the author of sin....he doesnt tell his creation to sin plus he gives you foundations to not sin...for example the moral laws of Moses in the 10 commandments. If your born again, He starts a process where you now have a conscience which is frustrating because your sin nature screams at you to sin but your conscience tells you no no no. So I think He is molding & shaping you all the time. Trying to get you perfect....your free will is that you can sin but your conscience is always serving as a governor in some sense.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Yes because that natural man doesn't seek nor understand that things that are spiritual. He's a sinner and wants to go his own way.

Ok, I agree with this, and I think that this is what Jesus meant when he said it would be hard for a rich man to go to heaven. If we have the things of the world and worship them then yes it is very hard to look to spiritual things.

But I still think the rich man CAN choose God over the world, else Jesus wouldnt have given the rich man a choice.

But sadly, we may disagree in theology on this, but in reality, not many worldly people see a need to seek Christ. I believe that God calls them just He did you and me, but most of them don't answer the call because being rich is more important to them.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

What does 2 Timothy 2:8-10 say, and who are 'they'.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
2Ti 2:9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Are the elect the ones that accept the offer of salvation? Or are they the ones that God gives salvation to?

I don't see any distinction here to argue either side.

However, when compared to John 3:16, I would have to say that I believe that the elect are the ones that accept Christ.

Is the "elect" individuals that God has chosen? Or is it the body of believers?

Based on John 3:16 and many other scriptures, I believe that it means the body of believers.

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And your taking predestination way outa context .....its about helping Gods elect to come to terms with God & have eternal salvation, not about why you scratched your rear at 4:45 PM last Saturday. If you believe that drivel, then we all would be puppets.......He gives you latitude....you can go this far & no further.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Well he isnt the author of sin....he doesnt tell his creation to sin plus he gives you foundations to not sin...for example the moral laws of Moses in the 10 commandments. If your born again, He starts a process where you now have a conscience which is frustrating because your sin nature screams at you to sin but your conscience tells you no no no. So I think He is molding & shaping you all the time. Trying to get you perfect....your free will is that you can sin but your conscience is always serving as a governor in some sense.

If God is not the author of sin, then we must have a freewill. If He lets us decide anything at all, then we have a freewill.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

And your taking predestination way outa context .....its about helping Gods elect to come to terms with God & have eternal salvation, not about why you scratched your rear at 4:45 PM last Saturday. If you believe that drivel, then we all would be puppets.......He gives you latitude....you can go this far & no further.

EWF, this is where you have pleasently suprised me. I thought it was you that took predestination way out of context. :thumbsup:

John

 

[convicted1]

Well he isnt the author of sin....he doesnt tell his creation to sin plus he gives you foundations to not sin...for example the moral laws of Moses in the 10 commandments. If your born again, He starts a process where you now have a conscience which is frustrating because your sin nature screams at you to sin but your conscience tells you no no no. So I think He is molding & shaping you all the time. Trying to get you perfect....your free will is that you can sin but your conscience is always serving as a governor in some sense.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


Brother, you're pure butta tonight....you're on a roll!!

 

[convicted1]

And your taking predestination way outa context .....its about helping Gods elect to come to terms with God & have eternal salvation, not about why you scratched your rear at 4:45 PM last Saturday. If you believe that drivel, then we all would be puppets.......He gives you latitude....you can go this far & no further.

Well, if God predestined the "itch", then the scratch was predestined as well. When we itch, we have no other choice than to scratch. Well, unless we can't reach the spot, and we ask someone else to scratch it for us. Our backs is what I am referring to. :laugh: :laugh:

 

[jbh28]

jbh and EWF, I am flabbergasted by your posts here. I did not think that any Calvinists believed that any man could get saved. I thought Calvinism taught just the opposite.

John

A lot has to do with they type of "Calvinist" one is. I've very light. I believe that God has chosen some to salvation and allow the rest to reject him. This doesn't mean that God keeps some from being saved. To me, it's not why some men reject Christ. It's about why some come to him. Men reject Christ because the don't want to come to Christ. Election is about why some do come.

 

[Amy.G]

not about why you scratched your rear at 4:45 PM last Saturday.

How did you know? :laugh:



(Good post btw..the rest of it that is )

 

[jbh28]

I would say that all events are preordained/predestined to happen. God is sovereign and nothing happens that God hasn't either caused to happen or allowed to happen. God chose to allow me to write this post. I don't believe God took my had and wrote this for me, but that he did preordained that I would do this. Of course this now could lead to a good discussion of the providence of God. If you think you understand it all, there's something you don't know.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If God is not the author of sin, then we must have a freewill. If He lets us decide anything at all, then we have a freewill.

John

If you are suggesting that you are free to select your total salvation then I am inclined to disagree. Because you have a sin nature, I believe your incapable to work out your salvation without the Holy Spirit....maybe some people even can, but I can tell you that I could not....I was too mired in sin to the point that I did not believe..... corrupt as a human could be. I had to be picked up & shaken up to understand (an intervention if you will). Thats when I received my Grace & it changed my life. So if you ask me if I did it my self....came to know the lord by my own "FREE WILL," then I would have to say no.

And here is the thing about people who believe in Doctrines of Grace.....they generally have similar testimonials. Somewhere in there lives, they all got knocked of their high horses & were humbled before the Lord. Just look at Paul ....LOL same stuff.

 

[seekingthetruth]

A lot has to do with they type of "Calvinist" one is. I've very light. I believe that God has chosen some to salvation and allow the rest to reject him. This doesn't mean that God keeps some from being saved. To me, it's not why some men reject Christ. It's about why some come to him. Men reject Christ because the don't want to come to Christ. Election is about why some do come.

This is freewill!!!!

If God 'allows' some to reject Him, then they did indeed make a choice.

I know that Calvinists argue that some never come to the point of even considering making a choice. I believe that most people are so wrapped up in worldly things that they dont see a need to make a choice.

But as Rush sang..."If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".

John

 

[12strings]

jbh28...Great posts!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How did you know? :laugh:



(Good post btw..the rest of it that is )

Ohhh thats Gods job sister.....I'm like Schulz, I know Noooothing! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[seekingthetruth]

If you are suggesting that you are free to select your total salvation then I am inclined to disagree. Because you have a sin nature, I believe your incapable to work out your salvation without the Holy Spirit....maybe some people even can, but I can tell you that I could not....I was too mired in sin to the point that I did not believe..... corrupt as a human could be. I had to be picked up & shaken up to understand (an intervention if you will). Thats when I received my Grace & it changed my life. So if you ask me if I did it my self....came to know the lord by my own "FREE WILL," then I would have to say no.

And here is the thing about people who believe in Doctrines of Grace.....they generally have similar testimonials. Somewhere in there lives, they all got knocked of their high horses & were humbled before the Lord. Just look at Paul ....LOL same stuff.

No indeed, we are not free to selcet total salvation. We are only free to accept it or reject it. Even when we get knocked off of our high horse we still have a choice.

Here is where I do agree with Calvinists to a point. God has selected some of us for special positions, or special missions in life. If God's plan is for one to be a pastor, teacher, missionary, or even just to witness to Uncle Jed and help him get saved one day, I dont think the HS will leave them alone until they submit to God's will.

I also think that a Christian that rejects God's plan for his life is subject to be 'taken out". I believe God will just take us home if we refuse to submit to His will for our lives.

Still, all of this involves freewill by man.

john

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But rather than be concerned about this, Id be worried about why we all sin in the 1st place & then how to cap it down & with some effort, how to work your way toward your eventual perfection cause thats the real challenge. The rest of this argument is just conversation. Eventually salvation means union with Christ, being one with Christ ....that should be the goal for all Christians.

 

[seekingthetruth]

But rather than be concerned about this, Id be worried about why we all sin in the 1st place & then how to cap it down & with some effort, how to work your way toward your eventual perfection cause thats the real challenge. The rest of this argument is just conversation. Eventually salvation means union with Christ, being one with Christ ....that should be the goal for all Christians.

Well, I think that as long as I am in this human body I will never reach perfection.

But, I do believe we are commanded to strive towards it.

Man, we are not as different as I thought.:thumbsup:

John