Is Everything Predestined?

[seekingthetruth]

http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/ftpredest.htm

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1167

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?1420




http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/bbwpredest.htm

The Importance Of Predestination


In an age when the fear of man threatens to 'dumb down' our testimony to God's truth, it is well worth while to remind ourselves that the foundation doctrine of predestination is to be publicly preached, whether men hear or forbear. On this point let us heed the Word of God and the witness of some of His choicest servants.

1. God forbids us to tamper with His revealed will in the slightest way. "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it." (Deut 4.2) "If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life." (Rev 22.18-19) As the doctrine of predestination forms part of His revealed will, it is included in this prohibition. Comments Zanchius:
"An ambassador is to deliver the whole message with which he is charged. He is to omit no part of it, but must declare the mind of the sovereign he represents, fully and without reserve. . . Let the minister of Christ weigh this well."

2. The Lord Jesus Christ and His apostles all preached predestination, declaring to their hearers "all the counsel of God." (Luke 4.25-29; Acts 20.27; Rom 9-11; Eph 1; James 4; 1 Pet 1.18-21; Jude 4; 2 John 1-3.) "What shall we then do?" asks William Plumer. "If the doctrine so offends men, shall we give it up? Are we to make peace with human wickedness by observing a profound silence on this topic? Nay, let us rather imitate Christ, who often preached it."

3. Faithful men in the past all refused to suppress this doctrine, however unpalatable it is to the carnal mind. In his day, Augustine rebuked those who passed over the doctrine of predestination in silence; and when he was charged with preaching it too freely, he replied by saying that where Scripture leads, there we must follow, adding: "Both the grace of free election and predestination and also wholesome admonitions and doctrines are to be preached." Writes Luther: "In chapters nine, ten and eleven [of Romans] the apostle teaches about the eternal predestination of God. He tells how it originally comes about that a person will believe or not, will become rid of his sins or not. He does so in order that our becoming pious be taken entirely out of our own hands and placed into the hands of God. And indeed it is supremely necessary that this be done; for . . . if the matter depended on us, surely not a single person would be saved. Since, however. . . His predestination cannot fail and no one can defeat His purpose, our hope against sin remains."

Calvin says the same: those who try to overturn "that prime article of our faith . . . God's eternal predestination . . . demonstrate their malice no less than their ignorance." In view of his approaching death, he wrote: "I John Calvin, servant of the Word of God in the Church of Geneva . . . have no other hope or refuge than His predestination, on which my entire salvation is grounded."

4. All truth is interconnected; to preserve a full-orbed Biblical testimony, the doctrine of predestination is necessary. Comments Zanchius: "The whole circle of arts have a kind of mutual bond and connection, and by a sort of reciprocal relationship are held together and interwoven with each other. Much the same may be said of this important doctrine [predestination]; it is the bond which connects and keeps together the whole Christian system, which, without this, is like a system of sand, ever ready to fall to pieces. It is the cement which holds the fabric together; nay, it is the very soul which animates the whole frame. It is so blended and interwoven with the entire scheme of Gospel doctrine that when the former is excluded, the latter bleeds to death."

5. The truth of predestination should be preached for the comfort of believers. "The doctrine of sovereign Predestination . . . should be publicly taught and preached in order that true believers may know themselves to be special objects of God's love and mercy, and that they may be confirmed and strengthened in the assurance of their salvation . . . For the Christian this should be one of the most comforting doctrines in all the Scriptures." (Loraine Boettner) If we would be a means of comfort to the people of God, we must assure them, by showing them marks of God's grace, that He chose them in love before the foundation of the world, that Christ died for them in particular and that the Holy Spirit who regenerated them shall certainly convey them to heaven.

6. Lastly, this truth should be preached to encourage preachers themselves. Writes William Plumer: "That the doctrine of election is a ground of encouragement to pious preachers of the Gospel is certain. Thousands have told us so. It was so to Paul. 'Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace; for I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: FOR I HAVE MUCH PEOPLE IN THIS CITY.' (Acts 18.9-10) The previous context shows that the Jews at Corinth 'opposed themselves and blasphemed.' In fact the work of founding a church there was just begun. Yet God says: 'I have much people in this city.' No man will say that God merely designed to inform Paul that Corinth was populous. He knew this already. The only fair logical meaning is that among the crowds of the ungodly in that city were many of God's elect, whom He purposed by Paul's ministry soon to bring to a saving knowledge of Christ. The doctrine of election, rightly understood, holds out the only ground of encouragement which we have for preaching the blessed Gospel. If God has no elect, we preach in vain."

So then, this doctrine has been expressly revealed to us to be believed and preached. The excuse that people will reject it, or that it is unjust, or that it will cause controversy, is irrelevant. Since God has commanded us to preach it, we disobey Him at our peril. One thing is certain: it makes wholly for His glory, brings comfort and hope to His elect, and leaves unbelievers without excuse. In doing this, it perfectly fulfils the purpose for which He has revealed it.

[This editorial is found in Peace and Truth 20006:3 the magazine of the Sovereign Grace Union written by John Brentnall www.sgu.org.uk]






By Various

Also, respectfully, you may believe that Jesus and the apostles preached predestination, but i dont. They never came right out and said it, it is just a doctrine based on certain men's interpretations.

Frankly, I dont see why it was needed for Jesus to come and die on the cross if God would just say "I save you, but I damn you"

If we didnt have a choice, then we wouldnt have needed the example of Jesus.

Without a choice, and a freewill, the death of Jesus was unneccessary.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Yes it is. And our wills are in bondage to sin.

Are you saying that sin is always my only option as a human?

John

 

[convicted1]

Are you saying that sin is always my only option as a human?

John

That would be like I give you a choice between choice "A", and choice "A". Now, it's up to you which one you choose. You can only choose choice "A".


"A"= sin

 

[seekingthetruth]

That would be like I give you a choice between choice "A", and choice "A". Now, it's up to you which one you choose. You can only choose choice "A".


"A"= sin

You are the one that gave the example of finding a wallet. "A" is i can do the right thing and give it to it's rightful owner, or "B". I can choose to sin and keep it. "a" is not the only option

We all sin, lost and saved. But we all make the choice to sin every time we do it.

John

 

[jbh28]

Are you saying that sin is always my only option as a human?

John

yes and no....

but really no.

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."

Unregenerate people can make "good" decisions, but they will never make spiritual decisions.

 

[jbh28]

You are the one that gave the example of finding a wallet. "A" is i can do the right thing and give it to it's rightful owner, or "B". I can choose to sin and keep it. "a" is not the only option

We all sin, lost and saved. But we all make the choice to sin every time we do it.

John

and an unregenerate person can choose to return the wallet. No Calvinists(except maybe a few hyper hypers) would say that unregenerate man will always choose option b. Just like regenerate people could choose B

 

[Winman]

What if, as a sinner, we tell the truth? What if we see someone lose their wallet, and they didn't know it, and we give it back to them?

We were still a sinner, and these deeds won't save us. But, if we are in bondage to their sin, then we would have kept the wallet, or we would continually lie, and never tell the truth.

JBH will likely say your motive was wrong, so even though you chose to be honest you sinned. This makes God's commands meaningless. Why do good if it is sin? Why not keep the wallet and steal? You are still a sinner if you return the wallet in JBH's view.

The unregenerate can do true good, this is proved by Cornelius. Cornelius was not saved, yet his good works were recognized by God as true "righteousness" as shown by Peter.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Peter spoke this concerning Cornelius BEFORE he preached the gospel to him, before Cornelius heard and believed and received the Spirit.

Just more false teaching from Calvinism.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Also, respectfully, you may believe that Jesus and the apostles preached predestination, but i dont. They never came right out and said it, it is just a doctrine based on certain men's interpretations.

Frankly, I dont see why it was needed for Jesus to come and die on the cross if God would just say "I save you, but I damn you"

If we didnt have a choice, then we wouldnt have needed the example of Jesus.

Without a choice, and a freewill, the death of Jesus was unneccessary.

John

More than an example brother.....Christ is Savior.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is he talking about me?

Nope.... not you!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Nah....it was me, I reckon....:laugh:

Not you either....but "Folks" I did leave hints. Ahhh Fiddlesticks!

 

[convicted1]

and an unregenerate person can choose to return the wallet. No Calvinists(except maybe a few hyper hypers) would say that unregenerate man will always choose option b. Just like regenerate people could choose B

If a sinner's will is in bondage to sin, there is no option "B".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I cant for the life of me understand why predestination needs to be preached, much less where we are commanded to preach it.

If we are predestined, against our will, to go to heaven or hell, then how is man's preaching going to change that?

What is the point? I know God commands us to spread the gospel, but this command seems to me to be contrary to predestination.

If God has decided that this group goes to heaven, and this group goes to hell, before we were even born, then how is preaching or spreading the gospel going to change the will of God?

John

Jon, with all due respect, I really don't think you have a full grasp on predestination & that is why you struggle with it. But because your attempting to understand it, one day I'm sure you will. I will just say that I went through the same struggle with it & I even railed about it... to me it just seemed to not be fair. I had to be given that understanding (& I will claim in my own personal testimony,) that it was given to me from the Holy Spirit. Maybe deep down I wanted it badly & didn't know it, that I am uncertain of. But when the Holy spirit convicted me of the grievous "Sin of Unbelief" suddenly I understood. My relationship with my Lord & Savior was in fact a lie. I was telling people & myself that I was a Christian when all the while not loving & serving the Lord. This voice was clear brother when it said " how can you call yourself a Christian when you constantly sin "(for all sins are insults to God). That made me stop & admit that I was deluding all including myself.....and it changed me John, It totally changed me & that in a nut shell saved a miserable wretch that is me.

Thats Predestination.....the intervention of the HS in giving me that grace to understand my LACK of relationship so I could turn it around & truly love the Lord. Before that, I was destined to hell....actually running towards it with reckless abandon.

Then the question still remains ....why me Lord? And I cant answer that. Only God knows the answer to that & I am grateful.

 

[preacher4truth]

There's a complete misunderstanding here on the will of man when lost. No one is saying, or at least they shouldn't be, that the only thing a lost man can do is choose sin.

As far as salvation is concerned, it is Gods enabling the believer that makes him capable of responding in faith, something one within his spiritually dead state cannot desire nor do without God.

And to John, the doctrine of predestination isn't made up by men, or by personal interpretation, it's Biblical revelation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If I was to put it in a nutshell, this is what predestination is....Predestination tells us that His people will be "conformed to the image of his son." In other words, someday the elect will be LIKE Christ and WITH Christ. Isn't that beautiful?

Here is some scripture (yea I know, I said I wasnt gonna do it) but I believe that it's pointing to something bigger than mans free will.


Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestine to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."


So..... you cant ignore these passages, right.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now here is an important point I need to stress (I have been doing it repeatedly) Predestination is always about *people* not *events*. Notice the words "we" "us" "whom" and "brethren" in the above scriptures. God did not predestine all things that transpire but He predestines all whom He foreknew. :thumbs:

Hope you got it & it is now clear..... cause I gotta go to work.

audios amigos

 

[AresMan]

Without a choice, and a freewill, the death of Jesus was unneccessary.

According to John Owen, the opposite would be the case:

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." (Works of John Owen: volume 3 pg. 433)

Owen argues that if libertarian free will were true, and the hinge of individual salvation rests on the ability of the creature (regardless of the requirement), then the Cross itself becomes unnecessary. God "could" have simply required faith in something without the Cross, if the spiritual faith requirement is intrinsically tenable in the unregenerate creature.

Both Reformed and Arminian theologians at the time understood what substitutionary atonement actually entailed, thus the Arminians flatly rejected it. Because the Reformation and the Great Awakening implanted into the evangelical gospel the power and importance of "substitutionary atonement," those who are synergists today assent to the term, but they simply either do not understand what it implies, or try to define it in such a way that jeopardizes the truth about what atonement actually implies.

 

[seekingthetruth]

According to John Owen, the opposite would be the case:

"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." (Works of John Owen: volume 3 pg. 433)

Owen argues that if libertarian free will were true, and the hinge of individual salvation rests on the ability of the creature (regardless of the requirement), then the Cross itself becomes unnecessary. God "could" have simply required faith in something without the Cross, if the spiritual faith requirement is intrinsically tenable in the unregenerate creature.

Both Reformed and Arminian theologians at the time understood what substitutionary atonement actually entailed, thus the Arminians flatly rejected it. Because the Reformation and the Great Awakening implanted into the evangelical gospel the power and importance of "substitutionary atonement," those who are synergists today assent to the term, but they simply either do not understand what it implies, or try to define it in such a way that jeopardizes the truth about what atonement actually implies.

Who is John Owen...is he like Joel Olsteen? Was he an apostle?

If his word is so important then why doesnt he have a book in the bible?

And why havent I heard of him?

Do you follow him, or Christ?

Sounds to me like another Luther or Calvin

John

 

[jbh28]

If a sinner's will is in bondage to sin, there is no option "B".

tell Jesus that...

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin."

As I said, "Unregenerate people can make "good" decisions, but they will never make spiritual decisions."

 

[jbh28]

Without a choice, and a freewill, the death of Jesus was unneccessary.

John

No, without sin the death of Jesus would have been unnecessary.

 

[12strings]

Who is John Owen...is he like Joel Olsteen? Was he an apostle?

If his word is so important then why doesnt he have a book in the bible?

And why havent I heard of him?

Do you follow him, or Christ?

Sounds to me like another Luther or Calvin

John

John Owen was simply a faithful pastor (unlike Joel Osteen) who had some insightful things to say and wrote some of them down.

Wise Christians have always learned from those who went before them, even while we follow Christ above every man.