Is Everything Predestined?

[DaChaser1]

I agree with you.

If that is true, then God gives his sentient beings free will. Now I know that Calvinists will say man's free will was lost in The Fall, but I see no evidence of that. Weakened yes, but not lost. Man thus needs help in coming to God, and that's where I believe in what Wesley called prevenient grace, and the Quakers called the Light of Christ. In no way does God predestine, compel or force people to come to Him or stay faithful to Him; it is not His nature. God's nature is freedom, and he endowed his sentient creatures with freedom.

Calvinism casts a dark shadow over the character of God.

Please remember thatGod created this world , created with the potential to have rebellion, sin, evil etc "free will", as that was the best way for Him to go based upon him knowing ALL other possible ways to have the creation done!

God knowing that all things would come to pass. had built in already befor even happened his master plan to have the Lord jesus die rise be glorified, and for sinners chosen by him to become his children and vessals to shop of His glories for all eternity!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Also, you really need to study the difference between "your" and "you're"

It is quite different.

As is the phrase "I couln't care less" and "I could care less"

Look them up, it will help you not look so stupid.

John

Oh Johnny Boy, You hurt my feelings :laugh:

Here is something you may want to read.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/could-care-less-versus-couldnt-care-less/

 

[jbh28]

Also, you really need to study the difference between "your" and "you're"

You're missing a period at the end of the sentence.

It is quite different.

As is the phrase "I couln't care less" and "I could care less"

Fragment...

Look them up, it will help you not look so stupid.

John

Well, aren't you just a ray of sunshine.

 

[marke]

The problem is with trying to derive doctrine about God's attributes from narrative passages and filter the declarative statements about God using these assumptions. Those passages that define God's attributes should guide our understanding of what the narrative and relational passages exhibit.

Let's compare two passages:

Exo 32:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Exo 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
Exo 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?
Exo 32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.
Exo 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The Exodus 32 passage looks like a vivid account of Moses being God's counselor. Yet, Paul asked rhetorically in Romans 11 "Who hath been his counselor"? He then says that of, through, and to God are "all things."

Can it rightly be said that God forgot His promises that He made to the fathers of the Israelites and that Moses had to help God recollect them?

It can rightly be said that God "repented of the evil which He thought to do unto His people." (Ex. 32:14). The question remains, why did He repent? I believe Moses' intercession on the behalf of God's people played a big part. It seems that God encourages His people to seek His face, to reason with Him (as Abraham did in Gen.18:25 when he said, "That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?")

God is not as impersonal and unyielding as some may think.

Sure, God was angry at the way the people were acting in their idolatry; however, is it not obvious that God was also testing Moses for Moses' sake? Moses needed to remember the promises.
Moses needed to be aware of why he had been through all the trials of the wilderness and led the people out of Egypt.
Moses was being tested with the temptation to have the chosen race come solely from his own progeny.

Yes, I agree that God was also testing Moses.

If God was fully intentioned to destroy the people, why would He ask Moses' permission to "let me alone"? Nebuchadnezzer declared of God "who can stay his hand?"

I'm not convinced that when the Bible says God repented of the evil that He thought to do that it can be truthfully said that God didn't actually repent of what He actually thought to do.

Comparing Scripture with Scripture, one can see the revelation of the "depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God" even in the narratives of how He relates to His creatures. It is much more obvious to me in the anthropomorphic and anthropopathic narratives of God and man how that God actually tests people for their own benefit rather than that there is imperfection or deficiencies in God.

There are no imperfections in God. But God's hand can be moved by man, as seen in Ex. 17 when Israel fought Amalek. As long as Moses kept his hands lifted up to heaven, Israel prevailed, but if his hands dropped Amalek prevailed. One spiritual application of this passage is that when we keep our eyes and heart on the Lord, he will give us the victory over the flesh, but when we take our eyes off of Him, our flesh takes control.

So we see God's hand is moved by our prayers. God is not changing, but we are changing and God is responding with a certain unchanging predictability in accordance to our specific needs at those various times. He may not always answer before we call, but He can be depended on to answer when we call, if we know Him.

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." (Jer. 33:3)

 

[Winman]

God certainly did not predestine that children would be sacrificed to idols.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

God never commanded these sacrifices, so how could they be ordained? He said these actions never came into his mind. So obviously man has a mind of his own and can perform actions which God did not command or ordain. Ordain means to command or decree.

God said this three times in Jeremiah.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

[preacher4truth]

God certainly did not predestine that children would be sacrificed to idols.

He created the world knowing this would take place.

 

[Luke2427]

Hyper-Calvinists openly assert everything is predestine. Boettner says everything is predestined. But is that Biblical.

No. This thread is not about Omniscience, no matter how it is defined. According to Arminianism, God knowing the future exhaustively does not predestine it. We must set aside this issue and stick with the scope of predestination.

If everything is predestined, that is Closed Theology and God is the Author of Sin, just as the Hyper-Calvinisms claim.

If everything is not predestined, that is Open Theology to a limited degree, and God knowing the future exhaustively does not change that everything is not predestined according to Arminianism.

Therefore all Arminians and most Calvinists are open theists to a limited degree.



Skandelon did not answer these questions. I will because I can support my views from scripture. Yes Jesus said what Peter would do. And as I have posted numerous times, Jesus can know what is in the hearts of people and therefore know how they would react given a circumstance. Thus Jesus knew what Peter would freely choose to do given that circumstance.

Did Jesus declaring what would happen fix the future? Yes, no plan of God can be thwarted, if even if Peter had been altered so his response would have differed, God would have brought about the denials anyway.

But the real issue is why did Skandelon ask this off topic question? Because he does not understand my view.

It would be nice if only posts that answer the question, is everything predestined be allowed.

Yes.

God bless!

 

[preacher4truth]

What does it mean when we say the biblical term 'predestine'?

Doesn't that mean 'to predetermine'? This means to settle or decide in advance.

That's what the definition προορίζω is.

Seems to me in that light, when God knew all things beforehand, having known all things prerfectly at all times, He decided in advance, prior to creation, knowing all that would take place, to go ahead with His plan.

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings;

I did read your quotes from Boettner, and while I concede that to be a common Calvinistic view, it is not the ONLY calvinistic view. The other would be that God knew Adam and Eve would sin, and knew I would sin, but did not predestine us to sin. Based on the knowledge that every person would turn away from him and that none would choose him, He Chose some to overcome their rebellious wills and turn them back to himself.

Niether Boettner nor you explains why foreknowledge must equal Predestining. He seems to take it as a given, just as you do.

Both Boettner and I explained it. Let me try again. If God knows what will happen in the future, nothing else can happen. Please say Yes you agree.

Now if nothing else can happen, that future thing is predestined. Please say yes you agree.

Therefore, if the future is known exhaustively, then the future is exhaustively predestined. Please say Yes you agree.

To take some other view is to embrace a logical impossibility, like God knowing and not knowing at the same time.
The only view I have seen to oppose it is "God does it even though we cannot know how." Fiddlesticks. John 3:11 teaches that the actual gospel is understandable to finite minds.

 

[Van]

reply to 12 strings;

-It seems the point of this is to avoid blaming God for sin...But what about God planning the murder of his own son? were those men sinning...was God the "author" of that sin? It certainly was his idea. If God ordains some great evil in order to bring greater good from it, then we as his created beings with limited understanding cannot say he has sinned.

Did you not read what I wrote concerning evil, that evil depends on ones point of view. God did indeed sacrifice His One of a Kind Son, for the purpose of Redeeming us. This was not a sin, because it was in according with God's perfect justice. So I think we agree, God does not sin.

- It only teaches Open theism if we accept: (1) your original premise that foreknowledge equals Predestining & (2) that everything is NOT foreordained. Neither of these has yet been proven.

Nope. If everything in the future is predestined, that is closed theism. But if anything is not predestined, then that is open theism. The whole theology is based on the future not being completely fixed.

-Here you have effectively saved God from being the determining factor for sin, but instead made him out to be something of a willfully ignorant Father who refuses to investigate suspicious behavior of his children: If God CAN know the future, but has not "chosen to know the future exhaustivly"...then he could have known about Adam's sin, and the child molestations, and the murders...but CHOSE not to know about them, and therefore not to prevent them.

No, yet again. Who said God chose not to know about Adam's sin? Good grief, 12 Strings, did God not choose Christ to be His lamb before creation!!!!!!

I think you have no idea about what the Bible actually says concerning His knowledge of our future actions.

I have explained the existence of perceived evil and actual evil.

John3:11 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
(Jesus is speaking here)

-I don't see how this verse says what you say it says, or how it is pertinent to this discussion.

Did you not see that those presenting the gospel spoke of what they know? This precludes teaching incomprehensible doctrine. The "God did it but I do not know how" argument.

Bottome line, if God did not predestine our sins, then open theism to a limited degree is biblical.

 

[Van]

Hi 12 Strings, did you see post number 147 where a Calvinist with integrety posted that he believes everything, every murder, rape and mutilitation is predestined?

Did you see post # 148, so yet another Calvinist with integrety posted that he believes everything, every murder, rape and mutilation is predestined.

If you peel the onion, this is the actual position of Calvinism, hidden in the code word soveriegn.

That is why anti-Calvinists say Calvinism represents God as a monster who predestines our sins then torments us for doing what He predestined. Not a winning gospel.

 

[Luke2427]

Hi 12 Strings, did you see post number 147 where a Calvinist with integrety posted that he believes everything, every murder, rape and mutilitation is predestined?

Did you see post # 148, so yet another Calvinist with integrety posted that he believes everything, every murder, rape and mutilation is predestined.

If you peel the onion, this is the actual position of Calvinism, hidden in the code word soveriegn.

That is why anti-Calvinists say Calvinism represents God as a monster who predestines our sins then torments us for doing what He predestined. Not a winning gospel.

The problem, brother Van, is that though on one hand we confirm that everything is going according to plan and that God predestined all that is, ever has been or ever will be- we ALSO confirm that men are responsible for the evil they commit and God does not compel them to commit evil and God hates evil. Men are making real choices which bear real consequences.

God has planned it all, yet he is not responsible for evil.

Now, you may ask me to justify these two apparent contradictions which I cannot do.

It is truly a mystery.

But what most of us on BB, both Cal and non-cal, are totally UNWILLING to do is redefine God to justify those items that stand in tension in our own mind.

We just accept that God is truly omniscient, eternally knowing perfectly all things- past present and future including what will ACTUALLY come to pass not just all things that MIGHT come to pass.

We accept that and accept that God is perfectly holy and loving and just and not responsible, somehow, for evil.

I think the problem with openness is that it redefines God to solve a mystery that we cannot solve.

 

[Luke2427]

Both Boettner and I explained it. Let me try again. If God knows what will happen in the future, nothing else can happen. Please say Yes you agree.

I do agree and rejoice in the truth of it.

Now if nothing else can happen, that future thing is predestined. Please say yes you agree.

Absolutely.

Therefore, if the future is known exhaustively, then the future is exhaustively predestined. Please say Yes you agree.

Affirmative.

To take some other view is to embrace a logical impossibility, like God knowing and not knowing at the same time.

I concur.

The Gospel, as far as it is knowable is perfectly knowable. But that does not mean that everything about the Gospel is knowable to finite minds.

I think we ALL know that there is much wonder in the Gospel which we have not even BEGUN to uncover.

 

[convicted1]

He created the world knowing this would take place.

I have to say amen to this. He knows all things, even the very second in time, when I take my last breath, and am called home.

 

[Luke2427]

I have to say amen to this. He knows all things, even the very second in time, when I take my last breath, and am called home.

Indeed. It is appointed, isn't it? You and have an appointment that God already knows about.

Since that day is the result of a series of decisions made by ourselves, our parents and those around us, as per God's foreknown plan- then God must, of a certainty, know beforehand all the ACTUAL decisions that will lead to that day on his calendar when he takes us out of here.

 

[convicted1]

To Brother Van:

Brother Van,

I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an open theist, so let me explain the way I see things in regards to this matter.

Say two weeks from now, I am offered either an apple or banana to eat. Whichever one I choose, God knows my decision now, eventhough this is to take two weeks from now. Now, if I choose the banana, by me choosing the banana, and God knowing that I was going to choose the banana, in no way, shows that He predestined me to chooose that banana. It's that He knew the choice I was going to make, and did not influence my decision. He knew/knows it, but doesn't influence it.

 

[convicted1]

Indeed. It is appointed, isn't it? You and have an appointment that God already knows about.

Since that day is the result of a series of decisions made by ourselves, our parents and those around us, as per God's foreknown plan- then God must, of a certainty, know beforehand all the ACTUAL decisions that will lead to that day on his calendar when he takes us out of here.

Well Brother, I do not think there is one thing that He doesn't all about it. He knows it all. As someone stated before, God doesn't have "aha" moments.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well Brother, I do not think there is one thing that He doesn't all about it. He knows it all. As someone stated before, God doesn't have "aha" moments.

Exactly Willis...you may now enjoy the words of psalm 139 with all your calvinist brethren....the open theist cannot repeat these words with certainty, or even pray correctly....
Psalm 139

1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


keep coming to the light ...my brother:wavey::wavey:

 

[convicted1]

Exactly Willis...you may now enjoy the words of psalm 139 with all your calvinist brethren....the open theist cannot repeat these words with certainty, or even pray correctly....
Psalm 139

1O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

10Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

11If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.


keep coming to the light ...my brother:wavey::wavey:

I say amen to this wonderful chapter.


I do not need to keep coming to the Light, the Light is in me, and shines out from me!

 

[Iconoclast]

I say amen to this wonderful chapter.


I do not need to keep coming to the Light, the Light is in me, and shines out from me!

:thumbs::applause: