Is Everything Predestined?

[convicted1]

:thumbs::applause:

Ushering in the "Hallelujah chorus"!! :thumbs::thumbs:


Grace 'tis a Charming sound,
Harmonious to the ear!!

 

[Winman]

He created the world knowing this would take place.

I knew before I had children that they would sin, but I never caused them to sin or condoned it. How did I know they would sin? Because I knew they would have a free will and would sin as we all do.

I wouldn't even say I allowed it, I tried to teach my children not to sin, and chastised them when they did sin.

Nevertheless, they have free will and can go against my will and sin, especially when they are grown. I cannot prevent it. Oh, I guess I could chain them to a chair and lock them in a room, but that would be wrong on my part. It is sin to enslave someone. Therefore I must allow them to be free and at times I know they will do things I do not approve of, just as I did things I clearly knew my parents did not approve of and taught me not to do, but did them anyway.

Sin is not some big mystery as Calvinism portrays. They must resort to this non-explanation because they reject the obvious, that men have free will. Men sin because they CAN. It is really that simple.

It is ridiculous to deny free will, because all men KNOW for a fact we have free will. It is a self-evident truth. You have to deny reality itself to deny free will.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbs::applause:

Willis said "I do not need to keep coming to the Light, the Light is in me, and shines out from me!"


Post Tenebras Lux--"after darkness, light" :godisgood:

 

[DaChaser1]

Both Boettner and I explained it. Let me try again. If God knows what will happen in the future, nothing else can happen. Please say Yes you agree.

Now if nothing else can happen, that future thing is predestined. Please say yes you agree.

Therefore, if the future is known exhaustively, then the future is exhaustively predestined. Please say Yes you agree.

To take some other view is to embrace a logical impossibility, like God knowing and not knowing at the same time.
The only view I have seen to oppose it is "God does it even though we cannot know how." Fiddlesticks. John 3:11 teaches that the actual gospel is understandable to finite minds.

God knows ALL possible ways that a future event could happen, and He freely decides wether to directly intervene to make sure His Will gets done, as in the situation of the birth, life, death, resurrection of Christ, or else allows what one 'freely chooses' to happen...

In ALL things, He is there to amke sure things proceed and confirm to His desired Will getting accomplished...

take comfort in that truth, as God is NEVER caught not knowing what to do, as he did not "see that coming!"

Are the events in revelation "already fixed" by God, or not?

 

[convicted1]

Willis said "I do not need to keep coming to the Light, the Light is in me, and shines out from me!"


Post Tenebras Lux--"after darkness, light" :godisgood:

YESSIREE!!! I was in dakness unto He saved me and placed His Light in me! I am now in the Light!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

YESSIREE!!! I was in darkness unto He saved me and placed His Light in me! I am now in the Light!

That should be the motto of all true Christians my brother.:thumbs:

 

[convicted1]

That should be the motto of all true Christians my brother.:thumbs:

If this isn't true, then they ain't a christian to begin with. Christians, true blood bought christians, do have the Light in them, and it will shine forth.

 

[jbh28]

Ephesians 1:11

 

[marke]

God certainly did not predestine that children would be sacrificed to idols.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

God never commanded these sacrifices, so how could they be ordained? He said these actions never came into his mind. So obviously man has a mind of his own and can perform actions which God did not command or ordain. Ordain means to command or decree.

God said this three times in Jeremiah.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

That has to be correct. I agree.

 

[marke]

He created the world knowing this would take place.

Of course knowing does not mean causing. God knew before the creation that the wickedness of men would increase greatly in the earth necessitating the flood, but it still grieved His heart and caused Him to express some form of "repenting" that He had made man (Gen. 6:6).

 

[marke]

I knew before I had children that they would sin, but I never caused them to sin or condoned it. How did I know they would sin? Because I knew they would have a free will and would sin as we all do.

I wouldn't even say I allowed it, I tried to teach my children not to sin, and chastised them when they did sin.

Nevertheless, they have free will and can go against my will and sin, especially when they are grown. I cannot prevent it. Oh, I guess I could chain them to a chair and lock them in a room, but that would be wrong on my part. It is sin to enslave someone. Therefore I must allow them to be free and at times I know they will do things I do not approve of, just as I did things I clearly knew my parents did not approve of and taught me not to do, but did them anyway.

Sin is not some big mystery as Calvinism portrays. They must resort to this non-explanation because they reject the obvious, that men have free will. Men sin because they CAN. It is really that simple.

It is ridiculous to deny free will, because all men KNOW for a fact we have free will. It is a self-evident truth. You have to deny reality itself to deny free will.

I agree. If man does not have some responsibility for his own actions as a free agent in those actions, then God must bear the blame for everything man does. Does God cause man to sin? Absolutely not. Does God will for man to sin? No. Therefore, man must exercise his own will in order to sin, which is why we say man has the ability to exercise his own will to sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

Marke, I am essentially in agreement with your thoughts here with respect to "God knowing but not causing", but it must be admitted that it leads to the following speculative and philosophical questions.

1. Did God "intentionally" create, even knowing the outcome, for a specified purpose?

2. Can it be speculated that God "could not" create sentient beings without the certainty of moral failure?

Some say God created, knowing the outcome, for the purpose of revealing and being glorified while others say that God created in the same way for the purpose of displaying His love. One of the many tensions hinted at in scripture.


Like many, I am much more skilled in "asking questions" rather than answering them.

 

[12strings]

The only view I have seen to oppose it is "God does it even though we cannot know how." Fiddlesticks. John 3:11 teaches that the actual gospel is understandable to finite minds.

(John3:11 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
(Jesus is speaking here)

Did you not see that those presenting the gospel spoke of what they know? This precludes teaching incomprehensible doctrine. The "God did it but I do not know how" argument.

So you are actually saying that there is NO PLACE for we as finite humans to say, "God says two things in scriptures that don't seem to fit together, But i believe they are both true since God said them, and I will leave it to God to know how it all works together."

Do you actually think that ALL bible doctrine is completely understandable without ANY mystery at all? Do you actually claim to know exactly HOW God did everything that he did? (since we are not allowed to say "God did it but I do not know how")

 

[12strings]

No, yet again. Who said God chose not to know about Adam's sin? Good grief, 12 Strings, did God not choose Christ to be His lamb before creation!!!!!!

It is YOU who said this:

The issue is not that God doesn't know the future. He does, the issue is the extrapolation that says God has chosen to know the future exhaustively, making him, according to finite reasoning, the author of sin, which He is not.

This underlined statement is what i was refering to, which you are saying is incorrect. So I assume your view is that God has chosen NOT to know the future exhaustively, specifically evil, because you believe if he did know about evil, then he is culpable for it.

It this is not your view, please explain.

 

[Van]

reply to Luke2427

The problem, brother Van, is that though on one hand we confirm that everything is going according to plan and that God predestined all that is, ever has been or ever will be- we ALSO confirm that men are responsible for the evil they commit and God does not compel them to commit evil and God hates evil. Men are making real choices which bear real consequences.

God has planned it all, yet he is not responsible for evil.

Now, you may ask me to justify these two apparent contradictions which I cannot do.

It is truly a mystery.

But what most of us on BB, both Cal and non-cal, are totally UNWILLING to do is redefine God to justify those items that stand in tension in our own mind.

We just accept that God is truly omniscient, eternally knowing perfectly all things- past present and future including what will ACTUALLY come to pass not just all things that MIGHT come to pass.

We accept that and accept that God is perfectly holy and loving and just and not responsible, somehow, for evil.

I think the problem with openness is that it redefines God to solve a mystery that we cannot solve.

Thanks for your honesty, very refreshing. Calvinism says God predestines everything, but Calvinism then asserts a logical impossibility, that predestining our sin does not make God the author of sin.

The issue here is John 3:11 which says the actual gospel was understood that those who presented it. Therefore a gospel that contains incomprehensible assertions is not the pure gospel.

 

[Van]

More dodge ball

(John3:11 - Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
(Jesus is speaking here)

So you are actually saying that there is NO PLACE for we as finite humans to say, "God says two things in scriptures that don't seem to fit together, But i believe they are both true since God said them, and I will leave it to God to know how it all works together."

Do you actually think that ALL bible doctrine is completely understandable without ANY mystery at all? Do you actually claim to know exactly HOW God did everything that he did? (since we are not allowed to say "God did it but I do not know how")

Talk about deflection. Good grief. I am saying the gospel is understandable, not what is unknowable about God such as how He accomplishes what He says He accomplished. Stop running and deflecting and dodging.

If you continue to misrepresent my views, as if you cannot read, we are finished.

 

[Van]

12 Strings, I explained why knowing the future makes that future outcome certain, because God's knowledge is without error and therefore what is known will occur. Did you address whether or not you understand this point of view?

 

[Van]

Hi Convicted

Brother Van,

I am not a Calvinist, nor am I an open theist, so let me explain the way I see things in regards to this matter.

Say two weeks from now, I am offered either an apple or banana to eat. Whichever one I choose, God knows my decision now, eventhough this is to take two weeks from now. Now, if I choose the banana, by me choosing the banana, and God knowing that I was going to choose the banana, in no way, shows that He predestined me to chooose that banana. It's that He knew the choice I was going to make, and did not influence my decision. He knew/knows it, but doesn't influence it.

If you "choose" from only one possibility, the banana, then the "choice" was predestined. You could not have chosen the apple because then God's knowledge would be in error. To choose means to can choose between two or more alternate outcomes. If only one outcome is possible, that choice is a non-choice, a predestined choice and you could not choose the other option.

 

[Van]

The Gospel, as far as it is knowable is perfectly knowable. But that does not mean that everything about the Gospel is knowable to finite minds.

You were doing so well until you muddied the water with the above mumbo jumbo. God predestining our sins, yet God is not responsible for our sins is simply mumbo jumbo and is in contradiction to John 3:11.

 

[Skandelon]

Luke,

I'd like to better understand how you draw any real or meaningful distinction between God's 'planning' or 'causing' evil and his 'authoring' it?

One seems as bad as the other to me. In fact, an author of a book seems much LESS CULPABLE than a creator who plans and causes evil. Why this distinction? And is it really a difference without a distinction?