Is Everything Predestined?

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon;

Mormons affirm the doctrine baptism by immersion, so should we claim that we are all Mormans to a limited degree? This is an attempt on your part to blur the lines of distinction between orthodox Baptist believes regarding God's full and complete knowledge of all things and your Openists views which clearly deny this because you assume that full omniscience equals predetermination.

Yet, you appear to affirm that Peter denied Christ freely and that it was fully foreknown. I'd be interested to know how you affirm this is possible yet declare that God exhaustive knowledge somehow denies human freedom? Please explain.

You called me an Open Theist, blurring the line and ignoring I only agreed on this one point, everything is not predestined.[/quote] But that isn't the only point you hold to within Open Theism. You also have argued that God doesn't have exhaustive knowledge and that is the point most people equate with the Openness view with which they take the most issue.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Is Everything Predestined?

If it is, so is this answer.
If it ain't, so ain't this answer.

If that is no answer, then it was predestined to not be one, or else not predestined to be one. If it is, then it was predestined to be one, or else not predestined to be one. That's 2-1-1 in favor of 'not predestined to be one.' Preponderance does not prove it, but I'll still go with that here. And if I'm wrong, then I'm predestined to be.

Dint your parents ever tell ya there ain't no such ting as ain't.....real lousy gramma! :tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If I was "predestined" to Hell, without the ability to repent, then why would I be held accountable for anything I do?

John

Nobody is predestined to hell....not after Christs death & resurrection. We all deserve it though......nobody is righteous, nope not one

 

[convicted1]

Nobody is predestined to hell....not after Christs death & resurrection. We all deserve it though......nobody is righteous, nope not one

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: That's why it's called Grace, unmerited favor.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::That's why it's called Grace, unmerited favor.

Amen Brother :smilewinkgrin:

 

[convicted1]

Amen Brother :smilewinkgrin:

I heard someone say one time that they and another person were both under conviction, and were earnestly seeking the Lord. He said the other person stated they wanted justice, but he told him he wanted mercy. I agree with this wholeheartedly. W/O mercy, I'd be in hell right now. Praise His high and holy name!! :godisgood: :jesus: :godisgood:

 

[seekingthetruth]

Nobody is predestined to hell....not after Christs death & resurrection. We all deserve it though......nobody is righteous, nope not one

Ok, I agree with you so far, but....

If only certain ones are predestined to be saved, doesn't that make the rest predestined to go to hell without an ability to repent?

john

 

[Skandelon]

You called me an Open Theist, blurring the line and ignoring I only agreed on this one point, everything is not predestined.

But that isn't the only point you hold to within Open Theism. You also have argued that God doesn't have exhaustive knowledge and that is the point most people equate with the Openness view with which they take the most issue.

You must nullify scripture by says God did not know and did know and then explain it with I know it is true, but inexplicable.

Do you honestly think you fully understand the knowledge of God and how that relates perfectly in regards to his creation? I'm not 'nullifying' anything because I'm not drawing conclusions like you are. I only affirm the truth of the entire revelation, rather than cherry picking the verses that fit my view and explaining away the ones' that don't, as you and the Cals do. So go fiddle that stick.

 

[jbh28]

Nobody is predestined to hell....not after Christs death & resurrection. We all deserve it though......nobody is righteous, nope not one

:thumbsup:[thumbsup removed because they don't allow 5 images]:thumbsup::thumbsup: That's why it's called Grace, unmerited favor.

Amen Brother :smilewinkgrin:

Well said EWF!

Yes convicted1, its God's Amazing Grace that I a wicked sinner am in Christ and on my way to heaven and not hell!

 

[seekingthetruth]

I don't know God's mind, but i do believe that God knows everything, past present and future.

Futhermore, I believe God IS everywhere, past, present, and future.

God created time so I am quite sure that He is not confined by time like we are. Time is a human concept.

However, just because God knows what choices we will make, does not mean He does not give us the freewill to make them.

We are responsible for our eternity. Jesus gave us a way to repent, be forgiven and go to heaven, it is up to us to accept it.

To say that some are predestined and chosen to go to heaven, is the same as saying that some are predestined to Hell. That would make God responsible for our sins and our non-belief....and I cannot accept that as truth.

John

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ok, I agree with you so far, but....

If only certain ones are predestined to be saved, doesn't that make the rest predestined to go to hell without an ability to repent?

john

Every man can be saved through the blood of Christ, John......its just that God sometimes helps others out....maybe even because they need it more (I cant prove that scripturally though....thats one of those things that only God knows why He goes that route).

Actually, we are not that far removed in our beliefs, but even the most heavy handed Calvinist would have to confess that Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved. The blood is sufficient to save all in this universe & 20 more besides. Praise God for that. :love2:

 

[jbh28]

If everything is predestined, God is the author of sin. Therefore, since God is not the author of sin, everything is not predestined such as every rape, murder and mutilation.

false dichotomy

Calvinism is based on the logical impossibility that God predestines everything yet is not the author of sin. But if God is not the author of sin, then Calvinism teaches open theism to a limited degree. But they deny it.

1. false dichotomy. something can be predestined because God said he would allow it to happen. God predestining something doesn't mean he caused it to happen. God determined beforehand to allow somethings to happen.
2. Calvinist don't deny the omniscience of God. No one other than you has denied some of God's attributes.

 

[jbh28]

Every man can be saved through the blood of Christ, John......its just that God sometimes helps others out....maybe even because they need it more (I cant prove that scripturally though....thats one of those things that only God knows why He goes that route).

Actually, we are not that far removed in our beliefs, but even the most heavy handed Calvinist would have to confess that Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved. The blood is sufficient to save all in this universe & 20 more besides. Praise God for that. :love2:

Yes, God doesn't prevent anyone from being saved. The death of Christ is of infinite value. Anyone that goes to hell goes to hell because they 1) are a sinner and deserve hell and 2) have rejected Jesus Christ.

We sinners do not deserve salvation nor the chance to be saved. If God were to not allow someone to be saved(God doesn't do this John 6:37) that person would go to hell and God would be just to do so. Why? Because they sinned and deserve hell. It's only by God's grace that we are saved.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Every man can be saved through the blood of Christ, John......its just that God sometimes helps others out....maybe even because they need it more (I cant prove that scripturally though....thats one of those things that only God knows why He goes that route).

Actually, we are not that far removed in our beliefs, but even the most heavy handed Calvinist would have to confess that Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved. The blood is sufficient to save all in this universe & 20 more besides. Praise God for that. :love2:

Wow, EWF, I have never heard a Calvinist proclaim that "Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved."

I am sorry, it seems I have misjudged you.

My pastor says that our beliefs lean more towards Calvinism more than Arminianism, but that we really dont fit into either camp, that is why i call myself a "regular Christian".

john

 

[convicted1]

Every man can be saved through the blood of Christ, John......its just that God sometimes helps others out....maybe even because they need it more (I cant prove that scripturally though....thats one of those things that only God knows why He goes that route).

Actually, we are not that far removed in our beliefs, but even the most heavy handed Calvinist would have to confess that Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved. The blood is sufficient to save all in this universe & 20 more besides. Praise God for that. :love2:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

Wow, EWF, I have never heard a Calvinist proclaim that "Christs death & resurrection makes it possible for all to be saved."

I am sorry, it seems I have misjudged you.

My pastor says that our beliefs lean more towards Calvinism more than Arminianism, but that we really dont fit into either camp, that is why i call myself a "regular Christian".

john

John, have you read the Cannons of Dort before? I think many Calvinists should read them. I believe sometimes certain points get over emphasized and we miss out on other truths.

"The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin, and is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world."

"Moreover, the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of His good pleasure sends the gospel."

John 6:37 says that all the come will be saved.

 

[seekingthetruth]

false dichotomy


1. false dichotomy. something can be predestined because God said he would allow it to happen. God predestining something doesn't mean he caused it to happen. God determined beforehand to allow somethings to happen.
2. Calvinist don't deny the omniscience of God. No one other than you has denied some of God's attributes.

But if God "allows" things to happen then that means that freewill is involved. if God doesn't make something happen, then man had to "choose" to make it happen.

Which is it? Does God allow man to have a freewill in that God "allows" things to happen that He deosnt control?.....or does God predestine everything and denies man a freewill?

If man doesnt have a freewill then God controls everything. If God doesnt control everything then man does indeed have a freewill.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

Yes, God doesn't prevent anyone from being saved. The death of Christ is of infinite value. Anyone that goes to hell goes to hell because they 1) are a sinner and deserve hell and 2) have rejected Jesus Christ.

We sinners do not deserve salvation nor the chance to be saved. If God were to not allow someone to be saved(God doesn't do this John 6:37) that person would go to hell and God would be just to do so. Why? Because they sinned and deserve hell. It's only by God's grace that we are saved.

Ok, JBH, but dont Calvinists claim that only the elect have the ability to repent and come to Christ?

John

 

[jbh28]

But if God "allows" things to happen then that means that freewill is involved. if God doesn't make something happen, then man had to "choose" to make it happen.

Which is it? Does God allow man to have a freewill in that God "allows" things to happen that He deosnt control?.....or does God predestine everything and denies man a freewill?

If man doesnt have a freewill then God controls everything. If God doesnt control everything then man does indeed have a freewill.

John

Men have choices to make. Men make choices. The objection to "freewill" is that our wills are not free. This doesn't mean we don't make choices. Our wills are tied to our nature and our nature isn't good without Christ.

 

[jbh28]

Ok, JBH, but dont Calvinists claim that only the elect have the ability to repent and come to Christ?

John

Yes because that natural man doesn't seek nor understand that things that are spiritual. He's a sinner and wants to go his own way.