Is faith a condition to obtaining salvation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: Once again, not impossible perhaps, but none will.

HP: That is a wise statement and according to God’s Word.:thumbs: It is when one starts eliminating possibilities, such as the one you here acknowledge, that ones theology runs amuck.

 

[DHK]

HP: DHK and David, a man after God’s heart, certainly are at direct antipodes. David said, Ps 7:8 The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me. Ps 18:24 Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in his eyesight.

You misunderstand David. He doesn't contradict himself. Paul, quoting David, states:

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[DHK]

Yours might not mean anything to God, but mine does. He loves to see me do righteousness.

No doubt you have professed salvation.
But for the one that is not saved God says that even the plowing of the wicked is an abomination in his sight. No matter what he does, it is not good. He cannot do good in His sight.

Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
--The obvious answer is, NO.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

HP: ‘On the account of what?’ is the real question. Scripture informs us that it is for sins that are past and that one has repented and turned from. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK says: “Quite evidently your good works, your righteousnesses don't mean anything to God.”

Jesus said: Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[steaver]

HP: ‘On the account of what?’ is the real question. Scripture informs us that it is for sins that are past and that one has repented and turned from. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus is NOT the propitiation for the sins present or future?

God Bless!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

To be the ‘propitiation for’ and to receive ‘forgiveness for’ are not one in the same. Christ is the propitiation for all sin, yet that does not mean that any sin in particular has had the blood applied and forgiveness received.

Only as man fulfills the conditions of repentance and faith is forgiveness for sin realized and the blood applied to their sin. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[steaver]

To be the ‘propitiation for’ and to receive ‘forgiveness for’ are not one in the same. Christ is the propitiation for all sin, yet that does not mean that any sin in particular has had the blood applied and forgiveness received.

Only as man fulfills the conditions of repentance and faith is forgiveness for sin realized and the blood applied to their sin. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Lu 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Then what is your point of saying....

Scripture informs us that it is for sins that are past and that one has repented and turned from. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Brother Bob]

Then what is your point of saying....

Scripture informs us that it is for sins that are past and that one has repented and turned from. Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Gives me an ill feeling in the pit of my stomach, when it is suggested that you can commit any sin and it is already covered by the blood of Christ. What happened to just being a Christian and acting "Christ like"??? I believe that to be the most harmful doctrine there is.

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If the saved are no different than the unsaved, Jesus died in vain.


BBob,

 

[Andre]

Remember, I didn't say that Paul wrote that it was impossible, but rather that nobody is.

Thanks for the clarification but I see no evidence anywhere in Paul that he ever denies that people will be justified by the good deeds their lives manifest. In fact, he clearly states in Romans 2 that some will. It makes no sense for Paul to describe a path to justifcation that zero persons will take.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul is not denying justification by "good deeds" here - he is denying that one can be justified by following Torah - doing the "works" of Torah.

Those of you who think otherwise have a difficult time explaining verse 29:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too

If by "works" Paul means the general category of "good deeds", why is he writing as if he is talking about something that distinguishes the Jew from the Gentile? And what is that?

It is obviously Torah. Paul is saying that we are justified by faith and not by doing the works of Torah. He is not forcing us to conclude read the number "zero" back into chapter 2 in respect to the number of people who will be justified by the good works they exhibit.

Again, why would Paul three times say that some will be justified by good works when, if you are right, the number of such persons is......zero?

Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - people are justified at the coming judgement by good works. And Romans 3:27-28 does not deny this at all. It denies that salvation is limited to the Jew - those who do the works of Torah. And that is why it makes so much sense for him to write this:

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith

 

[DHK]

DHK says: “Quite evidently your good works, your righteousnesses don't mean anything to God.”

Jesus said: Mt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The righteousness of the Pharisees were good works. It was a keeping of the law; not only the law in the Torah but all the laws in the Talmud as well. It was a religion of good works.
Jesus said that your righteousness must be greater than that?
What was that righteousness, and just how great did it have to be?

 

[Andre]

You misunderstand David. He doesn't contradict himself. Paul, quoting David, states:

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Again, the works here are the works of Torah, not the general category of "good works". A couple of verse later, Paul writes this:

Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Paul is concerned with the Jew-Gentile split and in verse 6, he is saying "blessed is the man whom God reckons as righteous without that man having to be under Torah." If the issue were simply "good works", Paul would not be bringing up the Jew-Gentile divide. Why? We already know from chapter 3 that Paul sees the Jew and Gentile as equally sinful. So the Jew-Gentile divide is irrelevant if his point really is "good works" cannot justify.

Paul never denies that human beings will be justified by the good works the Spirit produces in them. In fact, in Romans 2, he makes it clear that people will indeed be justified by good works.

 

[DHK]

Paul never denies that human beings will be justified by the good works the Spirit produces in them. In fact, in Romans 2, he makes it clear that people will indeed be justified by good works.

No, he doesn't. But you don't care about context, so you won't care what others have to say either. It is odd however that you sometimes refer to things like the "Jew-Gentile split," showing that you do have a knowledge that there is a difference and Paul addresses at times these differences. But you will only acknowledge this when it suits your own advantage. But that is human nature isn't it? It is one of the reasons why one can never be saved by good works. We don't have any to offer God. Our hearts are depraved. We have nothing to offer--no good works nothing. We deserve nothing but the wrath of God--eternal condemnation. There is not one good work that could merit me eternal life--not one.

But back to Romans.
In chapter one, Paul addresses the Gentiles.
In chapter two, Paul addresses the Jews.
In chapter three Paul addresses the world--both Jews and Gentiles--"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." (Rom.3:23)

You must keep things in their context. If you don't they won't make sense.

In chapter four, Paul begins an in-depth discussion on justification, and gives many illustrations how a man is justified by faith alone. The first five verses are particularly emphatic on this point. Chapter 5:1 actually ends the fourth chapter.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are not justified by works, but by faith, and faith alone.

 

[Andre]

But back to Romans.
In chapter one, Paul addresses the Gentiles.
In chapter two, Paul addresses the Jews.

In Romans 2, Paul treats the fate of both Jew and Gentile - it simply cannot be argued that this material is only relevant to the Jew:

God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Are you saying that the above material does not describe a judgement at which Gentiles will appear?

That is a position that is clearly untenable - three times Paul underscores that both Jew and Gentile will be at this judgement.

 

[Andre]

No, he doesn't. But you don't care about context, so you won't care what others have to say either. It is odd however that you sometimes refer to things like the "Jew-Gentile split," showing that you do have a knowledge that there is a difference and Paul addresses at times these differences. But you will only acknowledge this when it suits your own advantage.

Give me one example where Paul denies that we are justified by "good works".

 

[Andre]

In chapter four, Paul begins an in-depth discussion on justification, and gives many illustrations how a man is justified by faith alone. The first five verses are particularly emphatic on this point.

No. Chapter 4 is the end of the overall argument of chapters 1 through 4 which is essentially that, in Christ, God has been faithful to Abrahamic covenant, dealing with the sin of the world and creating a true covenant people. He does, of course, address justification, but this is not the main argument. The main argument is about God's covenant faithfulness.

Abraham is not a proof-text for justification by faith. Paul is saying much more than this about Abraham:

Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations

Paul is talking covenant here - arguing that all along God never promised that justification would be limited to the Jews, but rather that the true covenant people would include Gentiles as well.

 

[DHK]

Give me one example where Paul denies that we are justified by "good works".

I have.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

This is how we are justified. There is no other way. He left no other option open. Good works was not an option.

 

[DHK]

Give me one example where Paul denies that we are justified by "good works".

You can't argue a universal negative. You are asking the absolute illogical. Your argument is a logical fallacy.
Some examples:

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by believing in dinosaurs?

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by eating green cheese?

Show me where Paul denies that we are justified by sticking our heads in the sand

 

[steaver]

Gives me an ill feeling in the pit of my stomach, when it is suggested that you can commit any sin and it is already covered by the blood of Christ.

Gives me an overwelming feeling of gratitude for the love of God and His mercy. As a human being I cannot grasp the depth of His grace and mercy nor can I deminish in anyway His sacrifice paid on that brutal Roman cross.

What happened to just being a Christian and acting "Christ like"??? I believe that to be the most harmful doctrine there is.

True Christians follow Christ (Jo 10) . True Christians follow the Spirit (Ro 8) . True Christians still have to deal with sin (1Jo 3) . And true Christians do not continue in sin unto eternal death for they are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ehp 4) and they have an unction from the Holy One (1Jo 2) and God's seed remaineth (1Jo 3) . True Christians have a High Preist (Heb 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,13) who is an advocate for His children (1Jo 2) . True Christians overcome all sin by the works of Jesus Christ and His shed blood of Calvery (1Jo 5) .

And yes true Christians are kept by the power of God and will be preserved and presented blameless by the power of the blood....

1Pe 1:5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1Th 5:23¶And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 5:24Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do [it].

If the saved are no different than the unsaved, Jesus died in vain.


BBob,

Amen! God is faithful and is forever working in the lives of His children. Some need more work than others but all need work and all will overcome.

:jesus: :godisgood: :thumbs: :wavey:

 

[trustitl]

I have a question for Andre:

Are you one of the really good ones that are going to be justified by your good works?

If so, how many good works did you have to do to make God overlook your sin?

If so, were you born again at that point of doing that amount of good works?

If so, have you ever prayed "God, I thank you that I am not like that sinner over there?"

Please explain your "gospel" a little more for those interested in trying this route.