Is Faith a Meritorious Work?

[Reformed]

1) God doesn't force the man to drown ( sin ).
2) Man loves the water ( sin and sinning ) ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 )
3) Man hates the rescuer and will not accept the life ring, because that would mean leaving the comfort and love of the water.
4) Man reaching out to take the life ring, is not only impossible from the man's standpoint, it's the last thing he wants to do.
5) So, God has to jump in, swim over, knock him unconscious to keep him from struggling and place the life ring around him and then haul him back to shore.

Then he takes the man He just rescued, dries him off, takes him home and gives him new clothes and sits him down to dinner in a dining hall fit for a king.

That's about as close an analogy as I can come up with.

Dave, I can appreciate your analogy but perhaps there is another way to look at it. God changes the sinner and makes him into a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17). This unilateral work of God is regeneration, in which the sinner is passive (Ephesians 2:4-5). Once regenerated (and now spiritually able), the now-former-sinner wants nothing more than to come to God. This is the biblical way of viewing it because the Elect are justified by faith.

 

[Dave G]

I already tried that route, and I was answering according to @loDebar's reference.

 

[Reformed]

I already tried that route, and I was answering according to Iodebar's reference.

Oh. I cannot read his posts. Well, if he does not get it then the does not get it. Time to cut bait and move on to a new pond.

 

[loDebar]

Yes.
Actively reaching out and placing the life ring around himself, takes effort... while someone else placing it around him, doesn't.

Here is what is actually going on:

1) God doesn't force the man to drown ( sin ).
2) Man loves the water ( sin and sinning ) ( Romans 1:18-32, John 3:19-20 ) so much, that he's now in an unconscious delirium filled with ecstacy.
3) But man also hates the Rescuer and will not accept the life ring, because that would mean leaving the comfort and love of the water.
4) Man reaching out to take the life ring, is not only impossible from the man's standpoint, it's the last thing that he wants to do.
5) So, God has to jump in, swim over, place the life ring around his unconscious body and then haul him back to shore.

Then he takes the man He just rescued, dries him off, takes him home and gives him new clothes and sits him down to dinner in a dining hall fit for a king.

That's about as close an analogy as I can come up with.
It's all in God's word, sir, but it uses different language...more suited to a more serious and marvelous set of events that give Him all the credit, once again.

a life ring is thrown to the victim,


But we do not have to do anything physically, mentally and only have to believed in something that has not occurred and our only evidence that it will occur is the Word of Jesus,

The evidence of things not seen the only thing we can Hope is that Jesus can and is able to keep His Word

Our faith is useless unless it is in Jesus

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Does a drowning man cooperate in his rescue by accepting the life ring thrown at him?

Yes. That is the response of all mankind, to preserve physical life. Unless the Holy Spirit has intervened in the life of the natural man drowning in sin, the man is not aware of his spiritual condition and need to be rescued.

 

[loDebar]

We are have to realize our need but yet all we do is accept the finished work of Christ, If we attempt to add salvation cannot occur because we then have faith not in Jesus but our actions

 

[Dave G]

We are have to realize our need but yet all we do is accept the finished work of Christ, If we attempt to add salvation cannot occur because we then have faith not in Jesus but our actions

But how do we realize our need?
That is one of God's many actions towards the sinner.

That is the difference between faith, and "faith".
True faith comes from God.
False "faith" comes from man, and rests in his own actions...not God's gifts and God's actions on behalf of the sinner.

 

[37818]

Jesus was the express image of God's substance (hypostasis) just as faith is the substance (hypostasis) of things not seen.

No, faith is the substance (hyostasis) of of things hoped for, Hebrews 11:1.

 

[Dave G]

No, faith is the substance (hyostasis) of of things hoped for, Hebrews 11:1.

I agree.
But is it also the express image of things hoped for?
In other words, our hope, as believers, is "in Him"...we hope to see Him.

" who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;" ( Hebrews 1:3 ).

"Express image" is Strong's G5287, "hupostaseos", which is a variant of " hupostasis" ( also Strong's G5287 )... @1689Dave has the "y" in it instead of the "u".
It's found here:

" Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
"Express image" and "substance" are very closely related, to the point that I'd be willing to state that Dave is correct.

Faith is the express image of things hoped for.
Faith is said to be "of Christ" in Galatians 2:20 and Galatians 3:22.
Authored and finished by Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and not men.

True faith is faith in a Person, the express image of God, not a set of facts.
To me, it makes perfect sense.


Thanks for pointing that one out to me, Dave.

 

[loDebar]

But how do we realize our need?
That is one of God's many actions towards the sinner.

That is the difference between faith, and "faith".
True faith comes from God.
False "faith" comes from man, and rests in his own actions...not God's gifts and God's actions on behalf of the sinner.

God does work with sinners to show then their need,

Faith does come from God,
but God gives us the choice to exercise that faith in Him or not

look at the rich young ruler He knew his need yet rejected

 

[Dave G]

God does work with sinners to show then their need,

Does He do it for everyone who hears the Gospel?

Scripture should answer that question...not our own reasoning.
Thinking something is true in regards to salvation, should not be what guides us...God's word should.

Faith does come from God,

Does it come to everyone?
Again, God's word should tell us the answer to this.

but God gives us the choice to exercise that faith in Him or not

That is where we disagree.

I know of no Scripture or set of passages that state, "God gives us the choice to exercise faith in Him."
I daresay you will not find it.

look at the rich young ruler He knew his need yet rejected

Look at him again.
As I see it, he asked the wrong question...
"...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

He was asking according to works, not faith.
Contrast this with the Philippian jailer in Acts of the Apostles 16:25-34:
" Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

To me, he was asking according to faith, not works.

 

[1689Dave]

T

There is a point?

,, Faith does come from God as all things do, but the option to use that faith to accept God's promise or deny God promises is up to us,He does not force us to use that faith to believe. The Holy Spirit leads us, pleads with us to be saved but belief responsibility is on us

Is a cat responsible to act like a cat? How can any be responsible to act according to their new nature when that is all they can do?

 

[loDebar]

Is a cat responsible to act like a cat? How can any be responsible to act according to their new nature when that is all they can do?

Would God judge you unfairly, you are already condemned, Would he allows others to be saved without offering you the same?

It is not a sin nature but a nature to be a sinner. We choose to be selfish self centered rather than obeying God.
God has given us freedom, even the freedom to disobey Him .....or not

 

[loDebar]

Does He do it for everyone who hears the Gospel?

Scripture should answer that question...not our own reasoning.
Thinking something is true in regards to salvation, should not be what guides us...God's word should.

Does it come to everyone?
Again, God's word should tell us the answer to this.

That is where we disagree.

I know of no Scripture or set of passages that state, "God gives us the choice to exercise faith in Him."
I daresay you will not find it.

Look at him again.
As I see it, he asked the wrong question...
"...what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

He was asking according to works, not faith.
Contrast this with the Philippian jailer in Acts of the Apostles 16:25-34:
" Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

To me, he was asking according to faith, not works.

God prefers to draw all men.

Everything we have comes from God,, even the ability to believe

The rich you ruler approach Jesus as a legalistic and did not recognize Him as God
The jailer did realize his own need and that he could be saved

 

[1689Dave]

Would God judge you unfairly, you are already condemned, Would he allows others to be saved without offering you the same?

It is not a sin nature but a nature to be a sinner. We choose to be selfish self centered rather than obeying God.
God has given us freedom, even the freedom to disobey Him .....or not

God condemned all in Adam. That's why babies who never consciously sin die.

 

[Dave G]

Would God judge you unfairly, you are already condemned,

God judges all men fairly.
Sin requires eternal punishment.

Would he allows others to be saved without offering you the same?

God does not "allow" someone to be saved.
He does it...believers are simply passive recipients of the grace of God.
He also does not "offer" to save someone...He actually does it.

It is not a sin nature but a nature to be a sinner.

It's the same thing..."human nature".

We choose to be selfish self centered rather than obeying God.

Precisely.
That's the selfish sin nature.

God has given us freedom, even the freedom to disobey Him .....or not

I disagree.
God gave Adam and Eve that freedom...then along came Romans 1:18-32, and mankind's freedom in that direction ( to consciously obey God ), fell apart and went into the trash can.


Now we only choose according to what we love...sin, and what we hate...God and His ways.

 

[Dave G]

God prefers to draw all men.

In John 6:44, all that the Father draws, will come...every one.
Then, Christ will raise them up at the last day.

So, if God prefers to draw all men, then what's keeping them from coming?
Their "free will"?
Is there a verse that tells us, "man's free will decides the outcome"?

I don't see one.
I see that as assumed, not declared.
Do you know of a passage that tells us that God draws all, but they can either come to Christ or refuse to?

Again, I see no such declaration.
With respect, I see that answer provided out of implication and assumption, not declaration.

The rich you ruler approach Jesus as a legalistic and did not recognize Him as God

Why did he not recognize Jesus as God?
He was standing right in front of him.

The jailer did realize his own need and that he could be saved

How?

Paul and Silas had never seen the jailer before.
The jailer, being a jailer, was locked in a prison all the time...it was his job.
Prior to hearing Paul and Silas sing late that night and the earthquake happened, how did he even know to ask them what he must do to be saved?

Paul and Silas had not preached Christ crucified inside the prison...only out on the street.
If you look closely, the text does not say how the jailer even knew what question to ask.

Here's how I think it happened:
John 6:44.



With that, I feel there's nothing more to present.
This is my final reply to you in this thread.


I wish you well.

 

[utilyan]

Jesus saw faith as proof the person was born again and atoned for. He would be unjust healing any under God's wrath.

Mark 9

21And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22“It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” 23And Jesus said to him, “ ‘If You can?’ All things are possible to him who believes.” 24Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”

Here the person simply admits his lack of faith, A want of faith. If he HAD the faith Jesus would not have caught him with "IF YOU CAN?" Jesus still delivers.

That folks is called MERCY. It's time some of you MEET JESUS.

This is Jesus Christ. Not some MONSTER who only sides to his own bigotry.


In fact Jesus to show his apostles TRIED to pass himself as a MONSTER tyrant God to a PAGAN.

Mathew 15

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Jesus Christ TOLD HER NO 3 times! She is a Pagan. her daughter PAGAN and demon possessed. The daughter didn't come looking for help. So certainly the daughter's "faith" is not involved.

That love for her daughter that FIGHT inside for those you care for is GOD GIVEN.

 

[1689Dave]

Mark 9

21And He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?” And he said, “From childhood. 22“It has often thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, take pity on us and help us!” 23And Jesus said to him, “ ‘If You can?’ All things are possible to him who believes.” 24Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”

Here the person simply admits his lack of faith, A want of faith. If he HAD the faith Jesus would not have caught him with "IF YOU CAN?" Jesus still delivers.

That folks is called MERCY. It's time some of you MEET JESUS.

This is Jesus Christ. Not some MONSTER who only sides to his own bigotry.


In fact Jesus to show his apostles TRIED to pass himself as a MONSTER tyrant God to a PAGAN.

Mathew 15

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

Jesus Christ TOLD HER NO 3 times! She is a Pagan. her daughter PAGAN and demon possessed. The daughter didn't come looking for help. So certainly the daughter's "faith" is not involved.

That love for her daughter that FIGHT inside for those you care for is GOD GIVEN.

No atonement, no basis for healing. Faith proves a person is atoned for or they could not believe.

 

[utilyan]

No atonement, no basis for healing. Faith proves a person is atoned for or they could not believe.

Good then then both of these are perfect examples. Because the RECIPIENT of the help is not the FATHER or the MOTHER its done on the behalf of their children. I don't see their kids saying they are sorry. In fact they might not even know Jesus.