Is Faith a Meritorious Work?

[utilyan]

When he makes a statement that says, "Ice cream exists by the grace of God", knowing how he has reacted to "Calvinism" in the past, and seeing the comments in those threads, I feel that I have a real good handle on where the statement came from.

While I may be wrong, it looks like he's mocking God to me.

I'm not mocking God. I'm making the point that everything is sustained by God. If my statement is FALSE say it is.

He called faith a FRUIT, you didn't snap at him did you?


There is this idea of exclusivity that only particular people are gifted anything by God. I'm telling you ever breath is God given, Everyone's life is on a fragile fiber of thread that Jesus Christ holds together.

You can't even exist......"Unless drawn by the Father."

 

[1689Dave]

I'm not mocking God. I'm making the point that everything is sustained by God. If my statement is FALSE say it is.

He called faith a FRUIT, you didn't snap at him did you?


There is this idea of exclusivity that only particular people are gifted anything by God. I'm telling you ever breath is God given, Everyone's life is on a fragile fiber of thread that Jesus Christ holds together.

You can't even exist......"Unless drawn by the Father."

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [faith],” Galatians 5:22 (NASB95)

 

[InTheLight]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [faith],” Galatians 5:22 (NASB95)

You just keep on harping on this. Apparently you are ignorant of the difference between saving faith and faithfulness.

That's a big #1 from my list for you.

 

[utilyan]

I gree.

"Elect" means "chosen".
adjective
plural noun: elect

1.​

(of a person) chosen or singled out.

Chosen by God ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), given to His Son ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
Elect...the "whosoever believeth".

That's what I'm doing.
It's all I can do.

But, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men ( 2 Corinthians 5:11 ), anyway.

In truth, I'm not debating you...I'm declaring something...placing it on the table for you and others to see.
The reality of it is, I don't care if people agree with me.
I'm not in it to "win over the audience".

I'm also not surprised that there aren't many takers.

I can't speak for other "Calvinists", but I can speak for myself and those that I personally know.
The reason many of us keep trying, is because we wish to see God work miracles....not because we fear a lack of results.

We are fully aware that most professing Christians will reject these doctrines as "being too harsh", in favor of doctrines that are more "comfortable".

Well I understand how fairness and emotionalism can be viewed as weak when a person ignores the scriptural checks and balances as to its priority and Character of God.

A soldier who doesn't question orders won't have problem throwing his own mother in a gas chamber so long as he is ill informed of his orders.

You may not be aware that most Christians will reject those doctrines for "being Illogical", in favor of doctrines that have "COMMON SENSE".

For example the often dodged challenged of the COMMAND OF GOD.

Most Christians understand that when God commands something it means he actually wants and desires it.

But there is a few unlearned Christians who remain clueless to God's desire and wants.

When they try to fill in the gaps they use selfish human reasoning.


Let me give you a good example. I can be the best Calvinist here.

View #1

Fair? what fair would be for God to throw everyone in hell because everyone deserves hell.

Whats the real miracle is the shocking fact that he would bother to save anyone at all.

The most surprising thing is God would save a wretch like me. Like Amazing Grace.


At a glance that sounds dandy. But its simply poorly thought out false humility.

The perspective is based on retributive justice, not biblical justice. If you look at the biblical word Justice it has ties with mercy and RIGHTING the wrong, bringing balance

For example a Good Parent who's child get caught stealing. There is the Justice the PARENT deserves aside from what the THIEF deserves. For the Parent justice would be for the child to repent and sincerely change their ways.

The focus is so selfish on what a sinner deserves, no one bother to ask what GOD DESERVES.

Same goes for the passive insult given to God. Its not a miracle, shocking or surprise God would forgive save people.

To say thats surprising only tells us about YOUR perspective which is GOD turned out to be "HALF the TYRANT" we expected.

Which is the opposite of our view, I would NOT be surprise if God turned out to be a PERFECT hero for everyone.


Judgement day is going to be hilarious.

Because you are going to have to bring up an accusation, Lord we got this fellah here, Your not going to believe this Lord, This guy thought you were so kind and loving and merciful, perfect hero, He thought you were the best thing ever. He trusts you so much to even save the whole world!

what joke right?

I want to be there when God gives you the look.

Because at least in sincerity you think my idea of God is too good to be true.

All Merciful. All Loving. Completely Just.

God knows your thoughts, you can't hide the truth.

The God we preach is "TOO GOOD to be TRUE" In your mind. In secret your heart still cries out for that real savior. One day he is going to save you from the "God" you created in your mind.

Checks and Balances:

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.


If anything I'm telling you now doesn't have love, then it is nothing but noise and trash. As is any unloving interpretation of scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

In another thread the charge has been made that some believe faith is a meritorious work. The type of faith in question is saving faith as used in Ephesians 2:8. If faith is a work on the part of man than it cannot justify (save). As a Calvinist I believe that faith itself is a gift and is a result of regeneration. But take the Calvinist view out of the mix. Is there anyone who considers faith to be meritorious?

Sent from ! things of Godmy Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

No, for fallen sinners have no merits within ourselves, as in saving faith to use, as we all are born dead in sin natures to God and His things!

 

[utilyan]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness [faith],” Galatians 5:22 (NASB95)

Indeed Only those who God calls to salvation can ever experience a laugh or a smile-> JOY

Or experience patience, have one second of peace, any sort of kindness or goodness.

I guess that's about everyone.



When you sin its not because God didn't give you a do good battery.

You sin because you want to ,It is only your fault.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Would God judge you unfairly, you are already condemned, Would he allows others to be saved without offering you the same?

It is not a sin nature but a nature to be a sinner. We choose to be selfish self centered rather than obeying God.
God has given us freedom, even the freedom to disobey Him .....or not

Thankfully, God judges me unfairly. If I stood before him as my judge, He would have no choice but to condemn me to eternal suffering. That is where my Savior's sacrificial death is applied to my account, and I stand redeemed, my offenses unfairly washed away by Jesus' shed blood!! Amen and Amen!

Rom 6:18 KJV - Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 KJV - For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Fallen man is by default a servant of sin, his master being Satan. Therefore, God does not give mankind freedom to disobey Him. Disobeying God is a result of spiritual death that occurred in the garden.

Redeemed man is set free from the dominance of sin controlling his life and the consequence of past sin in his life. He becomes the servant of righteousness, his master being God the Holy Spirit indwelling him.

Eph 1:4 KJV - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 KJV - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Based on theses verses, the answer to your question is yes, He chooses (allows) some to be saved and not others.

 

[Dave G]

You may not be aware that most Christians will reject those doctrines for "being Illogical", in favor of doctrines that have "COMMON SENSE".

I'm aware of the difference between Scriptural understanding, and "common" ( common to every man ) sense.

"Common sense" tells me to trust what's right in front of me, or what I can see ahead of time and side-step.
Faith says to let God deal with it, trusting Him for the results.

He called faith a FRUIT, you didn't snap at him did you?

I didn't snap at you.
To me, you are treating the Lord far too lightly, and joking about serious matters.

I also happen to agree with @1689Dave ...faith, or "pistis", is indeed, a fruit of the Spirit.
It is only present in someone that has truly believed on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.

There is this idea of exclusivity that only particular people are gifted anything by God.

It's not just an idea.

I'm telling you ever breath is God given, Everyone's life is on a fragile fiber of thread that Jesus Christ holds together.

I agree.
So is salvation.

" And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" ( 1 Peter 4:18 )

Judgement day is going to be hilarious.

Judgement Day is going to be the worst thing you've ever seen.

People who thought they were saved ( Matthew 1:21-23 ) will be cast into Hell for all eternity.
None of it will be a laughing matter.

 

[Dave G]

Apparently you are ignorant of the difference between saving faith and faithfulness.

To me, he's well-informed of the difference.
They are directly related... they are one and the same.

"Saving faith" is the only kind of biblical faith.

Faith that rests on Jesus Christ and His willingness and ability to heal, deliver, etc.
Faith that waits on God to bail us out of our troubles.

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

Faith is not meritorious.
It is a precious gift given to believers, not unbelievers.

That is why unbelievers do not seek God...
They don't have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

 

[Dave G]

That's a big #1 from my list for you.

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE;

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," ( Galatians 5:22 ).

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

Same word..."faith".
it's the same word in the Greek..."pistis".

To me, I suppose it depends on whether you think the AV is or is not the very word of God.

 

[loDebar]

Thankfully, God judges me unfairly. If I stood before him as my judge, He would have no choice but to condemn me to eternal suffering. That is where my Savior's sacrificial death is applied to my account, and I stand redeemed, my offenses unfairly washed away by Jesus' shed blood!! Amen and Amen!

Rom 6:18 KJV - Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:20 KJV - For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Fallen man is by default a servant of sin, his master being Satan. Therefore, God does not give mankind freedom to disobey Him. Disobeying God is a result of spiritual death that occurred in the garden.

Redeemed man is set free from the dominance of sin controlling his life and the consequence of past sin in his life. He becomes the servant of righteousness, his master being God the Holy Spirit indwelling him.

Eph 1:4 KJV - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 KJV - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Based on theses verses, the answer to your question is yes, He chooses (allows) some to be saved and not others.

no, all are called, (if they have a soul to understand) few respond

He chose to save those who are already condemned. He was not obligated. Ephesians was written to those already saved tread the entire passage Those who are saved have a spiritual purpose for service
Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

We that are saved a called to witness to the lost, Why if God chooses who is saved.?

 

[InTheLight]

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE;

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," ( Galatians 5:22 ).

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

Same word.

No. Nope. Sorry.

"Faith" as in saving faith does not mean the same as the word "faithfulness".

You Calvinists can torture words to mean something to fit your theology until the second coming, still won't make it true. I feel sympathy for you guys that have to do this to make your "systematic theology" make sense.

To me, I suppose it depends on whether you think the AV is or is not the very word of God.

Nice (irrelevant) dig at me. The AV is the word of God, yes.

 

[utilyan]

#1. THE WORD IN THAT VERSE ACTUALLY MEANS SOMETHING ELSE;

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith," ( Galatians 5:22 ).

" But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." ( Hebrews 11:6 )

Same word..."faith".
it's the same word in the Greek..."pistis".

To me, I suppose it depends on whether you think the AV is or is not the very word of God.

Lets look at some scripture here.

1 Corinthians 1

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Let me put on your glasses:

21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to cause belief in those he saved.


Romans 10

10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


Let me put on your glasses:

10for with the heart a person believes AFTER he is made righteous and with the mouth he confesses, AFTER salvation.



Ephesians 1

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Let me put on your glasses:

13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ye believed.



Romans 5

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Let me put on your glasses:

2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.




Can you spot the difference?

One is taught by SCRIPTURE the holy word of God. The other is taught by Gnostic twisted philosophy.

I want to know if you can actually tell the difference between each of those lines. Is there any difference at all?

Can you point to which one is the actual word of God and which one is WRONG?

 

[1689Dave]

Indeed Only those who God calls to salvation can ever experience a laugh or a smile-> JOY

Or experience patience, have one second of peace, any sort of kindness or goodness.

I guess that's about everyone.



When you sin its not because God didn't give you a do good battery.

You sin because you want to ,It is only your fault.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

 

[utilyan]

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

Amen.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.


1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Repeating: The one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son

What is the testimony that is believed or not?

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Ok so the "reprobate" the one who makes God a LIAR is the one who ---> DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD HAS GIVEN THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON

So when the "reprobate" says "HEY, God doesn't want me to have eternal life, Jesus Christ did not die for me"

Is he really a LIAR? or is he HONEST?

 

[loDebar]

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

We ,as forgiven, continue to sin despite our wishes yet we are not condemned because sin in paid. We hurt or fellowship with the Father but still are saved.
Romans 7 15

 

[1689Dave]

We ,as forgiven, continue to sin despite our wishes yet we are not condemned because sin in paid. We hurt or fellowship with the Father but still are saved.
Romans 7 15

John says If we in, not When we sin.

 

[1689Dave]

Amen.

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.

CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.


1 John 5

10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

Repeating: The one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son

What is the testimony that is believed or not?

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Ok so the "reprobate" the one who makes God a LIAR is the one who ---> DOES NOT BELIEVE GOD HAS GIVEN THEM ETERNAL LIFE, AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON

So when the "reprobate" says "HEY, God doesn't want me to have eternal life, Jesus Christ did not die for me"

Is he really a LIAR? or is he HONEST?

But John says;

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:9–10 (NASB95)

 

[loDebar]

John says If we in, not When we sin.

Sin of a saved person cannot separate us from God,
We do not intend or should not disobey God but when we do, we ask for forgiveness and guidance.
Sin is not placed to our account ,

 

[kyredneck]

Is Faith a Meritorious Work?

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6