1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Adam's sin destroys all. Personal sin makes the suffering worse.
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Is Faith a Meritorious Work?
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In John 6:44, all that the Father draws, will come...every one.
Then, Christ will raise them up at the last day.
So, if God prefers to draw all men, then what's keeping them from coming?
Their "free will"?
Is there a verse that tells us, "man's free will decides the outcome"?
I don't see one.
I see that as assumed, not declared.
Do you know of a passage that tells us that God draws all, but they can either come to Christ as well as refuse to?
Again, I see no such declaration.
With respect, I see that answer provided out of implication and assumption, not declaration.
Why did he not recognize Jesus as God?
He was standing right in front of him.
How?
Paul and Silas had never seen the jailer before.
The jailer, being a jailer, was locked in a prison all the time...it was his job.
Prior to hearing Paul and Silas sing late that night and the earthquake happened, how did he even know to ask them what he must do to be saved?
Paul and Silas had not preached Christ crucified inside the prison...only out on the street.
If you look closely, the text does not say how the jailer even knew what question to ask.
Here's how I think it happened:
John 6:44.
With that, I feel there's nothing more to present.
This is my final reply to you in this thread.
I wish you well.
"John 6:44, all that the Father draws, will come...every one."
That is not what the scripture says.
John 6
44“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
No one can shake my hand unless the Father gives him a taxi ride over.
Does that mean everyone who got a ride shook my hand?
All he is saying is the limitation of who CAN COME TO ME.
Jesus could have said the word WILL instead of CAN.
Lets take a moment to go back to school....... You see the word CAN means CAN. Like I CAN jump off a cliff. That doesn't mean I will.
Those who are drawn by the father......CAN come to him. That doesn't mean they do or will.
You CAN read. It certainly doesn't mean you always DO.
CASE IN POINT -->No one CAN come to Me
Jesus heals all. He also heals the broken faith.
Matthew 9
2And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, “Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven.” 3And some of the scribes said to themselves, “This fellow blasphemes.” 4And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?5“Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6“But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7And he got up and went home. 8But when the crowds saw this,they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
See Dave if I believed your theology and I was the only elect fellah here. I'd be like these Father, Mothers, Family and Friends who would drag you like the paralytic to Jesus.
You couldn't argue with the paralytic about not going to go see Jesus......he can't move! Doesn't have the capacity.
So if there is nothing THEY CAN DO to better their situation and its all on God.
You should be the one pleading on everyone else's behalf.
In John 6:26-40 Jesus was speaking to the people. He said this:
"37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (emphasis mine)
Who are the ones who behold the Son and believe in Him (v. 40)? Those given to the Son by the Father (vs. 37, 39). The passage does not say that some that the Father gives Me. It says all that the Father gives Me. The Father does not give (the Elect) based on foreseeing their future belief. The Father predestined the Elect to give to the Son before the creation of the world, (Ephesians 1:4) both before they were born and while they were still in their sins (Ephesians 2:5). It takes some pretty creative exegetical gymnastics to maneuver around this.
"37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.” (emphasis mine)
Who are the ones who behold the Son and believe in Him (v. 40)? Those given to the Son by the Father (vs. 37, 39). The passage does not say that some that the Father gives Me. It says all that the Father gives Me. The Father does not give (the Elect) based on foreseeing their future belief. The Father predestined the Elect to give to the Son before the creation of the world, (Ephesians 1:4) both before they were born and while they were still in their sins (Ephesians 2:5). It takes some pretty creative exegetical gymnastics to maneuver around this.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Jesus always looked for faith in those he healed. It told him they were atoned for and born again. He told the Pharisees in John 10 he did not die for them and that is why they did not believe.
I've already shown this to be false.
Thats fine. Doesn't make all who are drawn = given.
There is nothing in this passage about "ELECT".
He goes on to tell you what happens to the GIVEN in John 17. A given can be LOST.
Jesus gives his OWN COMMENTARY about JOHN 6:44.
65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
Are you going to argue with Jesus about what he MEANT?
The kicker is all these people Jesus is talking to reject Jesus only the 12 stick around.
Matthew 8
5And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9“For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Is Jesus marveling at the great faith of the Centurion or his paralyzed servant who needs healing at home?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
= faith. How did Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead when he could not have faith?
“Jesus said, “Remove the stone.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there will be a stench, for he has been dead four days.” Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”” John 11:39–40 (NASB95)
All that the Father gives the Son are the Elect. "Elect" is a term that describes those who the Father chose since before the foundation of the world. Even Synergist theologians agree with this, although they define the Elect differently.
All who are effectually called are elect. There are many who hear the Word but they are not drawn by the Father. The only people called are those appointed unto eternal life (Acts 13:48).
I will not get into a protracted back-and-forth with you on this because it will not go anywhere. I am just setting the record straight.
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That is an excellent example Jesus states the REASON why he is doing miracles.
42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Its precisely because they DON'T BELIEVE he is doing miracles.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.
"All that the Father gives the Son are the Elect"
That is an interesting philosophy. how about quoting scripture to back that up?
John 17
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
WHOOPS....one of the elect went to hell?
No, all elect go to heaven. Elect DOES NOT MEAN GIVEN.
Quite obvious the given are the apostles. Just read John 17 whole thing. You will see Jesus prays for his GIVEN, the apostles and then the rest of the world separately. He doesn't call everyone "GIVEN".
"I will not get into a protracted back-and-forth with you on this because it will not go anywhere. I am just setting the record straight."
Lets have some common sense regenerated.
If I believed your awful theology I would not be debating a reprobate. I would be praying to God to get him fixed.
I can show you how to be a Calvinist better than anyone here.
Does He do it for everyone who hears the Gospel?
Scripture should answer that question...not our own reasoning.
Thinking something is true in regards to salvation, should not be what guides us...God's word should.
Does it come to everyone?
Again, God's word should tell us the answer to this.
That is where we disagree.
I know of no Scripture or set of passages that state, "God gives us the choice to exercise faith in Him."
I daresay you will not find it.
Look at him again.
As I see it, he asked the wrong question..
i agree he did not realize the statement from Jesus and did not respond at all. He asked according to the Law or actions which does not offer eternal life . He should have responded the only Jesus was good. . but Jesus knew his real attachment to riches
You use faith as a noun, to be receive to salvation only. the Bible uses believe or exercise faith as a verb . Which is allover the Bible,
Faith or the ability to believe is not the same as the Faith of believing toward Salvation
Correctly one can have faith yet not be saved because they chose not to believe on Jesus as Savior
Ice Cream exists by the grace of God alone.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It doesn't bother you to mock God in such a manner?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
He did.
Many times ( John 6:37-40, John 6:44, John 6:64-65, John 10:26-29, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, 1 Peter 1:2, Acts of the Apostles 13:48 and many more ).
No ( John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29 )
Not one of His sheep shall be lost.
Judas was not one of God's children.
He was the son of perdition..."perdition" means, "eternal damnation".
He was given to Christ so that Scripture might be fulfilled.
The rest were also given to Christ...so that Scripture, and God's will, would be fulfilled.
God doesn't send His beloved children to eternal punishment.
He does that for those He does not love, and do not love Him...which is everyone outside the body of Christ.
Please keep in mind that we all deserve His eternal wrath...
So, Judas got what we all have coming.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
I gree.
"Elect" means "chosen".
adjective
plural noun: elect
1.
(of a person) chosen or singled out.Chosen by God ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), given to His Son ( John 6:65, John 17:2 ).
Elect...the "whosoever believeth".
That's what I'm doing.
It's all I can do.
But, knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men ( 2 Corinthians 5:11 ), anyway.
In truth, I'm not debating you...I'm declaring something...placing it on the table for you and others to see.
The reality of it is, I don't care if people agree with me.
I'm not in it to "win over the audience".
I'm also not surprised that there aren't many takers.
I can't speak for other "Calvinists", but I can speak for myself and those that I personally know.
The reason many of us keep trying, is because we wish to see God work miracles....not because we fear a lack of results.
We are fully aware that most professing Christians will reject these doctrines as "being too harsh", in favor of doctrines that are more "comfortable".
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I've had Calvinists tell me the lunch that I will eat next week was predetermined by God's grace in eternity's past, so I wouldn't be accusing Utilyan of mocking God, if I were you.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
When he makes a statement that says, "Ice cream exists by the grace of God", knowing how he has reacted to "Calvinism" in the past, and seeing the comments in those threads, I feel that I have a real good handle on where the statement came from.
While I may be wrong, it looks like he's mocking God to me.
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