Is faith alone enough to save?

[Salamander]

Again, faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by works the are the direct result of faith that saves by grace. Faith without works is DEAD, else the Book of James is a farce, which it is not.

Paul was saying that sole dependence upon works to attain salvation was against Scripture/ James was saying that Abraham exhibited his faith by his works and it was accounted to him for righteousness, not salvation by works. IOW, Abraham had to accept Christ's atoning Blood just as any man. remember, Abraham was looking towards the Cross, we look back.

 

[EdSutton]

For Hope of Glory: The first sentence in your posting of Jan. 09 (Top of page 4) says:
"It's a good thing that salvation is based on works!"
I now finally realize it is a quote from an icon above it, but to this newbie it was confusing. I read it at least 10 times alnog with your other comments, and it made no sense to start. Not a condemantion; just an observation. The rest of your posts show we are fairly close. I might suggest that I might wonder whether the quotee will BE at the Judgment Seat, but that ain't my department and it ain't my call.

For Faith alone and Webdog: "Oh when the Saints, go marching in, Oh when the Saints go marching in..." If either of you picked up on that, answer something on the subject to me back in this column.
JWI, a month ago and partialrapture: Good comments. We are very close.
Salamander, please check your timeline on Abraham.
Most, if not all, have made some good points.
Dr. Bob- I don't know how much you are paid to be the ringmaster of this circus, but it undoubtedly should be more!
May I open with I do not use some phraseology I see here much, for I find some of it confusing. I seldom use phrases such as 'faith alone' or 'free grace', save the last one for identification, not definition. Faith that is not 'alone' is faith plus; 'Free grace' is redundant, for grace is free by definition. I do sometimes say for identification, that I'm part of the 'free grace' crowd. Others, even well meant ones, I find abhorrent. 'True saving faith'? Is there such a thing as 'false saving faith'? 'Really and truly believe'? Could one 'really but untruly' believe? I think not. Some worse ones are simply not close to Scripture, and some are out and out heresy. We SHOULD be careful with the tongue, as James says. Maybe we often seem to limit that verse too much. I think Scripture phrases itself fairly well. Given faithful translation, I am happy to not try to improve on 'God-breathed-out' words from men 'carried along by the Holy Spirit.' They seem to work fairly well. I think all of us are subject to 'parrot hear; parrot repeat' when it comes to what we speak, and usually do it without thinking. We tend to repeat each other so often until much of what we speak is really what I like to call "canonized rhetoric". I don't think we are well served; I don't think Scripture's teachings are, either.
Sermonette over from the farmer! The question was/is: "Is faith alone enough to save?" Yup! in God! In Jesus! Same difference! "Your faith has saved you."; Abraham believed in the LORD..." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved..." So am I really saying that "all you have to do is believe?" No, absolutely not! I didn't say that. That's not for me to say. Let's be clear; I am not the authority; what I said is irrelevant! So I didn't say it.
Dr. Bob wrote: "Another factor - what we think of as "saving faith" is never without its "flip side", repentance.
In that regard, faith alone (without repentance) is dead.
But real saving faith will ALWAYS have repentance as a part of it. Don't just think of "saving faith" as synonymous with "believing".
Remember, the demons believe."
I do not fully agree with what he wrote here. I will assume he refers to James when he speaks of the demons. What did the demons believe? According to James 2:19 and the context, they believed there IS ONE God, nothing further is said. The phrase rendered "You do well" has the linguistic and idiomatic effect of, in modern day lingo, 'So what?', 'Big deal!' or as your teenager might say today, "And your point is...?". It refers back to 'You say you believe there is ONE God'...So what? The demons believe that, and are even scared.' (Implied, but not said, is 'You don't even have that much respect!') There is a world of difference between believing that there is a god or gods; believing there is even one God, a la the Jews, and believing, i.e. trusting, i.e. faith IN God, or as said in other verses, IN/ON Christ/Jesus. John 6:47 says, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, He that believes on me has everlasting life." Acts 16:31 says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved...". John 3:16-18, 36; Rom 4:1ff and Eph. 2:8-10, among other Scriptures, imply, if not explicitly say, the same thing. So, Dr. Bob, I will agree with one thing, here; I'll not "...just think of "saving faith" as synonymous with "believing"."; I'll say it, as well! Like a bad rumor, I'm just repeating what I heard the rest of them say, "Saving faith IS synonymous with "believing"." You got a problem with that? I suggest at least three you can take it up with, Jesus, John, and Paul. You all work it out!
Let's see what the response is to these. I suspect it will be little different from what I usually find. We shall see. I'll make four statements, and give the usual response.
'Faith then is taking God at His word.'
A few 'Amen's are heard around; heads nod up and down.
'Saving faith is taking God at His word concerning the Gospel.'
More and more heads nod.
'It is nothing less than this.'
The room is getting quieter, as most heads nod up and down.
We pause; the nodding stops; the silence grows.
'It is also nothing more.'
And the screams become deafening!
Ed

 

[Hope of Glory]

I now finally realize it is a quote from an icon above it

Sorry, I should have quoted to avoid confusion.

 

[Faith alone]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Again, faith is never alone. It is always accompanied by works the are the direct result of faith that saves by grace. Faith without works is DEAD, else the Book of James is a farce, which it is not.

Paul was saying that sole dependence upon works to attain salvation was against Scripture/ James was saying that Abraham exhibited his faith by his works and it was accounted to him for righteousness, not salvation by works. IOW, Abraham had to accept Christ's atoning Blood just as any man. remember, Abraham was looking towards the Cross, we look back.

Salamander,

Could you expand on this? What do you mean by "faith is never alone?"

If you mean that it is accompanied by works, and not the natural result of the new birth by faith alone, that the person must be doing good works as well as believing, then obviously that is plain and simple salvation by works... But I don't think that is what you mean.

I don't see Paul as saying that the SOLE dependence upon works for salvation is the issue, but that even 1% works is works. Grace must be pure:

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace then it is no longer on the basis of works, else grace would not longer be grace.

Also, "Faith without works is DEAD." What are you saying that means? Could you expand on that as well? Because James also refers to faith without works being "useless." He was not saying that faith which is not followed by works is not real faith, but that it accomplishes nothing. And he was referring to believers, not unbelievers seeking eternal life. Perhaps we should start a thread on James 2.

Thx.

BTW, does anyone know how to turn on the email notification in this thread. I often get started in a thread, then never receive notices, so forget.

FA

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Faith alone:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
The vehicle of faith (by grace thanks Natters) resulted in a change of attitude in that thief. He turned from sin to Christ. In short, he repented.

Is repentance "turning from sin to Christ?"

It could be. But METANOIA is a change of the mind. As such, it can essentially be faith, if it refers to a change of mind regarding who Christ is.</font>[/QUOTE]If a change of mind does not result in a change of attitude and behavior... then was it really a change of mind or just an event?

But in general "repentance" is a recognition that we are sinners and need a Savior.

No. It is a change of direction spiritually.

Repentance doesn't save... when we believe, trust in Christ, we pass from death into life.

Jesus taught repentance from sin and to Him. I am satisfied that repentance is prerequisite to saving faith.

Hence repentance is not the vehicle through which we actualize God's grace - faith is. But without a repentant mindset we will not trust in Christ.

Not sure why you took my post on since this is pretty effectively what I said.

To say that faith is not enough means that there is something which we must do, which means that we could boast about it. And "yes," to say that faith is not enough IS to bring works into the picture.

Actually to bring faith based on a man-made decision in as the cause of salvation also brings works into the picture. Men make decisions after evaluating. Evaluating is work.

That's why we are saved "by" grace and "through" faith... and not the other way around.

I wish more Christians who think that faith is not enough wouldn't hem-haw but just say that works are required.

I completely reject the notion that works are required... or that faith has meaning with repentance.

 

[Charles Meadows]

That's why we are saved "by" grace and "through" faith... and not the other way around.

Good point Scott.

 

[EdSutton]

Contrary to what may appear, I am in no way dyslexic above teh eyebrows. My fingers are sometimes another story. I plan to try to do better in 2006 than I did in last year in 5002. Heh! Heh!
I decided to repost these four sentences, with a one word modification without the running commentary that I had above and see if I get any response.
What then IS faith? And what is 'saving' faith?

Faith then, is taking God at His word.
Saving faith is taking God at His word in the gospel.
It is nothing less than this.
It is also nothing more.
Ed

 

[Salamander]

Could you expand on this? What do you mean by "faith is never alone?"

Certainly. We are to posess a "living faith", a faith that allows us to have as the precedence of our lives the honour and glory to God. One that is actively producing an effective witness with the offense of the "child" considered in all of those actions; which actions are works that a living faith can only produce.

To intermit that "works plus faith" is necessary for salvation is heresy, but equally a faith w/o works is too. Saving faith begins just before salvation, then becomes living faith as the sanctification process advances beyond the point in time of our being saved, thus our faith begins to work through us as God also works through us providing a testimony to ultimately give God all the glory!

A living faith is never void of the works that grace empowers and produces. To be "strong in the grace" God has given is a working/living faith.

You have to think beyond the limited view from the "box" created by the "saved by grace" alone crowd to see the full aspect of why our faith is to be actively producing those works.

 

[Salamander]

Faith then, is taking God at His word.
Saving faith is taking God at His word in the gospel.
It is nothing less than this.
It is also nothing more.
Ed

That would hold true if we all were saved then immediatelt taken from the walks of this life, and most of us aren't.

That would explain why God has given us ample time to obey His Word in telling, teaching, and baptising more who also have this saving faith that ultimately advances into a living faith.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Could you expand on this? What do you mean by "faith is never alone?"

Certainly. We are to posess a "living faith", a faith that allows us to have as the precedence of our lives the honour and glory to God. One that is actively producing an effective witness with the offense of the "child" considered in all of those actions; which actions are works that a living faith can only produce.

To intermit that "works plus faith" is necessary for salvation is heresy, but equally a faith w/o works is too. Saving faith begins just before salvation, then becomes living faith as the sanctification process advances beyond the point in time of our being saved, thus our faith begins to work through us as God also works through us providing a testimony to ultimately give God all the glory!

A living faith is never void of the works that grace empowers and produces. To be "strong in the grace" God has given is a working/living faith.

You have to think beyond the limited view from the "box" created by the "saved by grace" alone crowd to see the full aspect of why our faith is to be actively producing those works. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. Salvation is NOT a one time event. It's a lifetime of following Christ. Otherwise, why are we warned to endure until the end and to finish the race?

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

24. Know ye not--The Isthmian games, in which the foot race was a leading one, were of course well known, and a subject of patriotic pride to the Corinthians, who lived in the immediate neighborhood. These periodical games were to the Greeks rather a passion than a mere amusement: hence their suitableness as an image of Christian earnestness.
in a race--Greek, "in a race course."
all . . . one--Although we knew that one alone could be saved, still it Would be well worth our while to run [BENGEL]. Even in the Christian race not "all" who enter on the race win ( 1Cr 10:1-5 ).

Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

J. Scott said:

I completely reject the notion that works are required... or that faith has meaning with repentance.

Works are not required to become a Christian. Faith and repentence are all that is necessary. But the Bible clearly says that a continued abiding in Christ and repentence is required to remain one.

 

[AresMan]

I agree. Salvation is NOT a one time event. It's a lifetime of following Christ. Otherwise, why are we warned to endure until the end and to finish the race?

So, in other words we have to "work" at it? As in works? If not, are we "robots" where it is impossible for us to stop "following Christ"? If that is so, then why the commands and warnings?

I would say justification is a one time event; sanctification is a life long process, but no one is guaranteed immunity from sin.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Look at the context. The disciples asked about the end of the world. Jesus then gives signs about the end of the world and persecution of Jews and Christians. Those who endure (survive) to the end shall be saved (delivered from death). Verse 15 talks about the abomination of desolation prophesied in Daniel. Unless you are a preterist, this is the end-time tribulation. So the "saved" here is not talking about salvation from "hell" but deliverance from death in the end times.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Same account here. Also notice verse 17: "But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" This is obviously end times prophecy.

1Cr 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

This passage is about rewards.
Verse 18: "What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel." So, if the prize is heaven itself, then only one person will attain heaven?
Verse 25: "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." We run the "spiritual" race to get a "spiritual" prize--and incorruptible crown. What really was the reward that Paul was seeking? According to verse 18, his reward was to be able to give the gospel freely.

Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled;

Read the whole of Hebrews chapter 12. It seems to be directed at believers. It is encouragement in trials and provoking to endurance in chastisement.
Verse 1 encourages by reminding of the multiplicity of witnesses to the faith.
Verses 2-3 remind that Jesus endured hardships to accomplish His goal.
Verses 4-10 remind these Hebrews going through trials, who were probably wondering where God was in it all, that God as a Father chastens His children; therefore, chastening is evidence of sonship, which should encourage them of the presence of God.
Verses 11-17 warn them that they will miss out on blessings if they "give up" while God chastens them.
Verses 18-24 assure them that this chastening is not unto their destruction, but ultimately their blessing and His eternal plan.
Verses 25-29 warn them that God is omnipotent and judges severely, and just as the Israelites under the old covenant were chastened for disobeying, so much more shall those under the new covenant be chastened for disobeying.

 

[Salamander]

Works are not required to become a Christian. Faith and repentence are all that is necessary. But the Bible clearly says that a continued abiding in Christ and repentence is required to remain one.

Works are required to shew forth our testimony so the world will rightly accuse us of being "Christians".

Faith plus repentnence? Not exactly, but repentence is a work of faith as giving ample opportunity to excercise that gift in space and time to repent.

Where does the Bible ever say that abiding with Christ assures us of remaining a Christian? Nowhere! Abiding is relating to fellowship, not relationship. It would also be justly understood that one who does not abide in Christ is one who has broken fellowship with Christ and is ruining their testimony as a Christian.

our light is to so

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Works are not required to become a Christian. Faith and repentence are all that is necessary. But the Bible clearly says that a continued abiding in Christ and repentence is required to remain one.

Nope. Otherwise it is not grace. Yours is a Catholic lite system whereby Christ doesn't save us but rather provides a way for us to save ourselves.

Romans 8 doesn't tell us that the elect are conformed if they work. It says that God predestinated those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ. Not ambiguous. No appeal to human free will. Just a concrete declaration by God that He will accomplish His purpose in His people.

2 Thess 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2 also declare that sanctification is a result, not a cause, of God's foreknowledge and election of us to salvation.

The elect will abide/persevere in Christ- TULIP.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

We have to take into account the verse that says

Faith without works is dead.

Also, Jesus' own words when He said, 'Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father which is in Heaven'.

If there are no works to follow a profession, there is no true conversion.

I can say of a new chair I built, 'I know that chair has strength to hold me up'. But until I put some works (action) behind my words, that chair will never hold me. I must sit in the chair.

We must put on Christ, we must live the life Christ would have us live if we profess Him.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We have to take into account the verse that says

Faith without works is dead.

True indeed. But the verse, and similar verses, don't indicate that works are required for salvation, they indicate that works are required as a result of salvation. HUUUUUGE difference.

 

[Scott J]

Amen John. Works are the nature of a God quickened spirit.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Works must follow salvation, yes. But if works do not follow, then one must have made an empty profession.

If I hold iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me. Psalm 66:18

 

[webdog]

Is there a litmus test for how long the works have to follow?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

webdog,

Jesus said, 'If you love me, keep my commandments'

I believe that the fruit of the Spirit would be evident in a true believer's life. Now, even the sinner knows how to follow many of the commanments, and does; as we see the story of the rich young ruler.

But Jesus told the man He wanted commitment. The rich man was not ready for commitment and went away sad.

Commitment would be the litmus test.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
Is there a litmus test for how long the works have to follow?

Yes, God's... not ours.