Is faith alone enough to save?

[Charles Meadows]

SFIC,

I think most would agree that a profession of faith that is not followed by any change in the person's life - any Godly works - probably was an empty profession.

But your past posts seem to indicate that you take this dictum a little farther than the Bible allows.

Consider your statement that those who commit suicide will not go to heaven.

Those of us who have professed Christ in true faith have changed lives. But that does not mean that you can look at someone and conclude that he /she is not a Christian based on a lack of works.

We are all human and will continue to sin to some degree because of our human weakness.

I have not uttered a 4 letter word in years - this is a direct result of my conversion. But if I became very mad tomorrow and cursed that would not mean that I am not really saved - it would mean that I am still a person who falters.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No sign of works, no fruit, would be a good indication that person's profession was empty.

you will know the tree by the fruit it bears.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Works must follow salvation, yes. But if works do not follow, then one must have made an empty profession.

Unless man has been given the ability to judge a person's heart, that cannot be automatically assumed, nor should we attempt such. There is no shortage of lazy Christians who don't bother lifting a finger for the Kingdom. That doesn't mean they're unsaved, just undisciplined.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If there is no desire to do anything for the Lord, no desire to go to worship and fellowship with believers after the profession of faith, then that person cannot have the heart that seeks after God.

The psalmist wrote: The zeal of Thine house has eaten me up.

and:

I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD.

Those who make a profession and never have a zeal to go to worship, there is something wrong.

Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Those that make a profession of faith and want to hold onto sin, there is something wrong.

And yes, we can judge the heart, because what is in the heart shows on the outside.

Jesus said, Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If there is no desire to do anything for the Lord ... that person cannot have the heart that seeks after God.

Unless we are God, we cannot know a person's desire. Hence, we cannot presume a lack of savation based solely on lack of fruit.

Another probelm is that we often judge a person's salvation on "type" of fruit. The person may be producing kiwi, but if we can't stand kiwi, we will often end up judging the person falsely. In fact, that happens all the time, unfortunately.

 

[Salamander]

Unless we are God, we cannot know a person's desire. Hence, we cannot presume a lack of savation based solely on lack of fruit.

I almost agree, but to say this, that some "fruitbearers" are simply going through winter in their walk w/God. But Jesus also said we will know them by their fruits, that is, their desires can very easily be judged by the fruits they produce: corrupt trees produce corrupt fruit.

Those trees producing corrupt fruit is due to the sowing to the flesh, thus reaping corruption.

A person is controlled by their desires; if a person desires to sin, they will, or at least aim their direction in attempting that sin.

When a person is controlled/ constrained by the Spirit, they will undoubtedly have a desire to please God by obeying the Spirit. This obedience will be made manifest in their bearing of good fruit. Good fruit, no matter the kind, is pleasing to God, as well, it is usually pleasing to all peoples, except those that hate God will NOT be pleased by good fruit.

 

[Salamander]

True indeed. But the verse, and similar verses, don't indicate that works are required for salvation, they indicate that works are required as a result of salvation. HUUUUUGE difference.

Not really any difference, except that one who died nearly immediately upon salvation would not have the time to do good works.

Of course no one is saying that works are required to get saved,(except the cult religions) but that works are required as evidence that we are truly saved; good works that is.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Salamander:
... no one is saying that works are required to get saved, ...but that works are required as evidence that we are truly saved;

I think everyone is in agreement. What we're not in agreement on is the after effects. Some contend that if a person isn't demonstrating works, then it can be deduced that the person isn't saved. Others, like myself, contend that the lack fo works does not necessarily mean the person isn't saved, since there is no shortage of lazy Christians in the world.

 

[Salamander]

Oh, but that won't last long, or the child is in disobedience and will be chastised.

Chastisement will have a positive effect that is evidenced by good works.

Look at John 15.

I know many belive that this parable is saying that "in me" means some will not bear fruit, but being "lift up" will begin to. but that is not true. A close look at vine dressers will tell us that the branch that hangs down is never lift up, but cut off.

As good a Vinedresser God is would never let a branch capable of producing fruit lie in the mire and then pick it up to cause it to produce

 

[partialrapture]

the teaching of faithworks makes me sick...
Which one is it?

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

ok...

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith ONLY.

Please be of an understanding heart, there are TWO justifications in the bible...

if not then who should we believe paul of james?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

ok...

Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus taught faith and works but rightly applied them and he did not mix them and confuse them together as most do today.

 

[partialrapture]

http://www.fundamentalbooks.com

 

[EdSutton]

Johnv wrote:
"I think everyone is in agreement. ..."

Uh John, is there a definition somewhere I missed of agreement?

Charles Meadows wrote:
"I have not uttered a 4 letter word in years - this is a direct result of my conversion.

Charles- Just keep reading all the thrreads. I'm sure you might be able to remedy that situation.

Ed

 

[Charles Meadows]

Ed,

heh heh - well I hope not.

SFIC is correct that a belief in Christ is something what changes a person. And I concur that a person who professes to be a Christian but has zero fruit may not have really had a saving experience.

But that is indeed a weightly charge.

The fact is that we are all human and we all sin. My life is certainly much different than it was before I became a Christian. But I still have had moments of weakness. So we must be careful not to judge.

And we must also keep in mind that the works are results and not causes of salvation.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Salamander:
Oh, but that won't last long, or the child is in disobedience and will be chastised.

Again, I generally agree with that statement. Still, we should refrain from judging a person's salvation based on fruits. Righteousness and faithfulness, perhaps we can judge those. But salvation, no. That is the right of God and God alone to do.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

partialrapture,

You quoted James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You forgot to quote this verse...

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We are justified by faith, yes. Romans 5 tells us this. But that faith is an ative faith, it is not a dead faith. There must be works to show. I used an analogy earlier of making a statement about a new chair holding me up. If I never use that chair by sitting in it, the statement is a dead statement.

Paul wrote:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The old man is crucified upon true faith. Sin no longer has the same appeal as it did before. Will we sin? Most probably, yes. Paul said in Romans 7:19 'the evil that I would not do, that I do'

We will all sin, but because of the Spirit, we are convicted and repent. We do not continue in it, if we truly are God's.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Let's see, some on here seem to be saying, "Salvation is not by works, but it's by faith, but faith without works isn't faith, so salvation is by faith based on works".

That, my friends, would be a salvation by works, not matter what lip service you give it otherwise.

As has been shown repeatedly, apiritual salvation is an event; justification is a process.

 

[webdog]

We are justified by faith, yes. Romans 5 tells us this. But that faith is an ative faith, it is not a dead faith. There must be works to show. I used an analogy earlier of making a statement about a new chair holding me up. If I never use that chair by sitting in it, the statement is a dead statement.

The "dead" here doesn't mean "never existed". Think of it like a car that "dies". You would say that the car is "dead" or the engine is "dead". This would not denote that the car never was a car, or the engine never worked. In context then, the faith is one that has ceased to produce because of being in a backslidden state.

 

[webdog]

As has been shown repeatedly, apiritual salvation is an event; justification is a process.

No, justification is an event, sanctification is a process.

 

[Hope of Glory]

It always amazes me that a person can list passage after passage, and then someone comes along and say, "No it isn't!" I will once again list every passage in which someone is "justified" in the present tense.

Luke 16:15, Acts 13:39 (justified by the law is aorist; all those who are believing (faithful) are being justified in the present; Romans 3:24; Romans 3:26 (justifier - one who is justifying); Romans 3:28 (it's a present, passive, infinitive, even though the KJV doesn't look like it); Romans 4:5 (one who is justifying); Romans 8:33 (one who is justifying; Galatians 2:16 (1st one is present, passive, 2nd aorist, passive, 3rd future, passive); Galatians 3:8 (present, active); Galatians 3:11 (present, passive); Galatians 5:4 (present, passive; James 2:24 (present, passive).

Justification is an event.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> We are justified by faith, yes. Romans 5 tells us this. But that faith is an ative faith, it is not a dead faith. There must be works to show. I used an analogy earlier of making a statement about a new chair holding me up. If I never use that chair by sitting in it, the statement is a dead statement.

The "dead" here doesn't mean "never existed". Think of it like a car that "dies". You would say that the car is "dead" or the engine is "dead". This would not denote that the car never was a car, or the engine never worked. In context then, the faith is one that has ceased to produce because of being in a backslidden state. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. We all died in Adam.

BTW, a car that was dead... would not be revived by its own action... it would require a Mechanic to cause it to work again.