Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[Tom Butler]

God has not inclined your heart in any direction, but has given you a clear choice

Trust in Jesus and do not let any man say you cannot.

The whole world has a hope through Jesus.

The fleshly heart is not neutral, but is actually inclined against God.

The whole world can have a hope through Jesus, but only if everyone hears the gospel and believes. Without the gospel, there is no hope. In other words,without the Good News, there is only Bad News.

I've always loved I Cor 4:7 Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that wasn't given to you? And why to you brag as if it wasn't given to you?

So I ask this question: What is the difference between those who believe the gospel and those who don't? And who makes the difference?

 

[MB]

Hi Tom;

The fleshly heart is not neutral, but is actually inclined against God.

True but our hearts can be changed if we listen to the gospel. A king once listened to Paul and was almost convinced. He was still lost because he chose not to listen anymore.

The whole world can have a hope through Jesus, but only if everyone hears the gospel and believes. Without the gospel, there is no hope. In other words,without the Good News, there is only Bad News.

I've always loved I Cor 4:7 Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that wasn't given to you? And why to you brag as if it wasn't given to you?

So I ask this question: What is the difference between those who believe the gospel and those who don't? And who makes the difference?

God by His convincing. Although we still have to surrender all and trust in Him.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I've always loved I Cor 4:7 Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that wasn't given to you? And why to you brag as if it wasn't given to you?

So I ask this question: What is the difference between those who believe the gospel and those who don't? And who makes the difference?

MB said:
God by His convincing. Although we still have to surrender all and trust in Him.

Tom asks again:
What is the difference between those who surrender all and trust in Him and those who don't? Why are some convinced and some not?

 

[MB]

Hi Tom;

Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I've always loved I Cor 4:7 Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that wasn't given to you? And why to you brag as if it wasn't given to you?

So I ask this question: What is the difference between those who believe the gospel and those who don't? And who makes the difference?

MB said:
God by His convincing. Although we still have to surrender all and trust in Him.

Tom asks again:
What is the difference between those who surrender all and trust in Him and those who don't? Why are some convinced and some not?

A matter of surrender depends on the willingness to forsake all else for just one, Jesus Christ.
A richman in Mat 19:16-30 Came to Christ and asked what he could do to have eternal life. Christ said;

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Since the man came to Christ and asked we can say the man sought out the Lord for an answer. Christ not only told the man but invited him to follow Him.
Matthew wrote;
Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

This man wanted eternal life but wasn't willing to do what is necessary to have it. His sorrowfulness shows he heard and understood the terms but was unwilling to give up what he had. He choose not to trust the Lord. Many come just that close but, close isn't good enough. The man obviously believed what he was told, but he just had no trust. The difference is willingness. Why are some willing and some not? I don't know why. What's your answer?
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

Hi Tom;
Why are some willing and some not? I don't know why. What's your answer?

Because the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates the heart of stone and makes it into a heart of flesh. It is that described by Paul: You he hath quickened who were dead in your trespasses and sins.

It is that spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus: Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

In that same passage, he also likened the Spirit to the wind. The wind blows where it pleases. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.

It is that spoken by John earlier in Chapter 1, verse 13: "Which were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh, but of God.

Those who are willing are willing because of a direct work of the Holy Spirit to open their eyes, their understanding and their hearts.

 

[David Michael Harris]

The fleshly heart is not neutral, but is actually inclined against God.

The whole world can have a hope through Jesus, but only if everyone hears the gospel and believes. Without the gospel, there is no hope. In other words,without the Good News, there is only Bad News.

I've always loved I Cor 4:7 Who makes you to differ from another? What do you have that wasn't given to you? And why to you brag as if it wasn't given to you?

So I ask this question: What is the difference between those who believe the gospel and those who don't? And who makes the difference?

It's all about God and His Grace?

David

 

[MB]

Because the Holy Spirit sovereignly regenerates the heart of stone and makes it into a heart of flesh. It is that described by Paul: You he hath quickened who were dead in your trespasses and sins.

I realize your view is a reformed theology doctrine but I'm not a reformer.

It is that spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus: Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Yes John 3 does say that but I fail to see where it says that our hearts must be changed first before we can believe.

In that same passage, he also likened the Spirit to the wind. The wind blows where it pleases. So is every one that is born of the Spirit.

True again but nothing about being born again first. You may notice;"So is every one that is born of the Spirit." It is also us who are like the wind. We tend to show up unexpected. The Spirit can convict a sinner anytime he wishes

It is that spoken by John earlier in Chapter 1, verse 13: "Which were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh, but of God.

We are born of God I agree. It is all of God because God made it possible man did not.

Those who are willing are willing because of a direct work of the Holy Spirit to open their eyes, their understanding and their hearts.

This is true but where in scripture does it say that man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have there eyes opened so they can have understanding and there hearts and wills changed?

I can agree that Conviction does all these things. but with out surrender there is no commitment. With out surrender there is no hope. In other words Christ must come first we cannot have Salvation and value other things or people more than Jesus Christ.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

With out submitting they were still living by the Law and they lost there chance at Salvation because of it.

In Matt; 19:16-30 went away sorrowful because he could not give up those things he place such a high value on. He loved the world more than life eternal, indeed more than Christ.

I don't believe that Salvation is unconditional. When we can only have Grace through faith.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Regeneration involves Grace. How does man obtain enough Grace to be regenerated with out faith? Seems impossible to me. Since saving Grace is always through faith.

I admit that I do not understand the reformed view. I do understand that confessing jesus Christ means that He will confess me.
MB

 

[Tom Butler]

MB said:
I realize your view is a reformed theology doctrine but I'm not a reformer.

That's the reason we will have a hard time agreeing on the placement of faith in the salvation sequence.

That's the reason non-reformed folks will do all they can to explain away John 1:13..."...not of the will of man..." to preserve the view of man's free will to choose.

It's why Acts 16:15 presents a problem, because it speaks of the Lord's opening Lydia's heart so she could understand and "attend" what Paul was teaching. Lydia did not, yes, could not undertand, until God acted. Lydia's saving faith came only after God had acted first to make that faith possible.

Up to my last post, I had avoided trying to insert Calvinism into the discussion, for once it gets in, the thread gets hijacked. I did so only in response to a question. And I don't want to chase this reformed rabbit any further to avoid hijacking.

 

[MB]

MB said:
I realize your view is a reformed theology doctrine but I'm not a reformer.

That's the reason we will have a hard time agreeing on the placement of faith in the salvation sequence.

You're most likely right here. I have read a few things about the Calvinist doctrine and I disagree with some of it. What I disagree with are not really Salvation issues. Faith and trust is.

That's the reason non-reformed folks will do all they can to explain away John 1:13..."...not of the will of man..." to preserve the view of man's free will to choose.

I do not attempt to explain it away. I agree with Jn 1:13. Didn't God make Salvation possible? If He did, then it is all of God. Man doesn't save himself but God doesn't save men against there desires either. If He did this would be the end to possibility. All things are possible with God. If we limit man's possiblities for Salvation we limit the possibility power of God.
He may Change mans desire when he shines His light on men by the power of conviction. Some are so hurt by there own convictions they run from God. They avoid the truth to cover up there own sins. They won't listen.

It's why Acts 16:15 presents a problem, because it speaks of the Lord's opening Lydia's heart so she could understand and "attend" what Paul was teaching. Lydia did not, yes, could not undertand, until God acted. Lydia's saving faith came only after God had acted first to make that faith possible.

I don't deny that Lydia's heart was opened and that it was opened when she heard Paul. The preaching of the gospel does that. It's where conviction takes place. Although it doesn't say Lydia was regenerated. She was already a worshiper of God.

Up to my last post, I had avoided trying to insert Calvinism into the discussion, for once it gets in, the thread gets hijacked. I did so only in response to a question. And I don't want to chase this reformed rabbit any further to avoid hijacking.

I can respect that but, would you answer one more question that isn't about Calvinism?
Is faith necessary for Salvation?
MB

 

[psalms109:31]

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 19
Paul in Ephesus
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[Or after] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied. 4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[Or other languages] and prophesied.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find…

22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man…

24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Helen]

Yes, faith is necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. There is no 'road' for grace to travel without that faith. Faith is the way through which God has chosen to administer His grace in our lives. Including His saving grace.

 

[Tom Butler]

MB you made a statement and asked me a question.
Didn't God make Salvation possible? If He did, then it is all of God. Man doesn't save himself but God doesn't save men against there desires either.

Exactly. It is either all of God and his grace, or none of either.
I also agree that God doesn't save men against their desires. No one will be saved who doesn't want to be saved. Where we will differ, I suspect, is on how they acquire that desire.

MB again
.would you answer one more question that isn't about Calvinism?
Is faith necessary for Salvation?

Without question. When all the arguments over Calvinism are done, we come back to repentance and faith for salvation.

 

[psalms109:31]

Belief

Just keep your faith in Jesus not in your election for even the elected Jews was cut out for unbelief.

We are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

Your faith is in Jesus not in election or anything that comes from men, especially those who have chosen themselves and call themselves the elect of God. No one has told you are the elect of God, but God say's believers shall be saved.

We are not saved by grace without having faith in Jesus. Jesus is our focus not in election that people were cut of for unbelief. Jesus has guarenteed you that believers who endure to the end will be saved.

He has not garenteed the elect to be saved, but He has you if you continue in His kindness.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, even if these people don't believe the word of God. You who believe do, because you know your grace is through faith. You have to go through faith in Jesus to enter grace, if you turn away from Jesus, you turn away from grace.

Your cost of your sin is death. You did not pay your debt, Jesus did. The work for our salvation is not faith, or is it belief, or anything else, but it is death.

You are saved by grace through faith. It was not of your work, but of Jesus work on the cross. He paid your debt, so you are saved by grace through faith.

You cannot save yourself for the cost of your sin is death. You have to have faith in Jesus because He is the only one who can save you. God has given you this faith to you from His word, but you can turn away from it, just like the young rich ruler did.

 

[Amy.G]

I can't believe this thread is still going. Especially on a Baptist board. Don't we all agree that faith is necessary for salvation? Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Just an observation.

 

[Blammo]

I can't believe this thread is still going. Especially on a Baptist board. Don't we all agree that faith is necessary for salvation? Without faith it is impossible to please God.
Just an observation.

Some calvinists seem to think salvation is necessary for faith. In other words - salvation preceeds faith. So to some, including the author of the OP, the answer could actually be no. I think everyone would agree that faith and salvation go hand in hand, however, some believe salvation is necessary for faith, because without salvation faith is impossible. We all agree that, if you are saved, you have faith. But some believe you are saved before you have faith. So, to them, the answer would be no.

(I feel I was a bit redundant while at the same time unclear) :tongue3:

 

[Amy.G]

Some calvinists seem to think salvation is necessary for faith. In other words - salvation preceeds faith. So to some, including the author of the OP, the answer could actually be no. I think everyone would agree that faith and salvation go hand in hand, however, some believe salvation is necessary for faith, because without salvation faith is impossible. We all agree that, if you are saved, you have faith. But some believe you are saved before you have faith. So, to them, the answer would be no.

(I feel I was a bit redundant while at the same time unclear) :tongue3:

Thank you, Blammo. That was a very good explanation. I'm so glad Jesus said we should have the faith of a little child. It's so much easier that way!:tongue3:

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Yes, faith is necessary for salvation. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. There is no 'road' for grace to travel without that faith. Faith is the way through which God has chosen to administer His grace in our lives. Including His saving grace.

It was a rhetorical question.

The point of this thread was to discuss among other things the condition of those who do not have the gospel and the fate of those who are not exposed to the gospel.

 

[Tom Butler]

Some calvinists seem to think salvation is necessary for faith. In other words - salvation preceeds faith.

Sighhh.

Profitable give-and-take thrives when both sides of the discussion understand what the other side believes. When one side demonstrates ignorance of the the other's beliefs, or willfully misrepresents them, the discussion suffers.

Blammo, I prefer to believe it was not willful distortion when you stated that some Calvinists think salvation is necessary for faith. I do not know a single Calvinist who believes that, and I have never heard or read one who ever stated that.

Now I have to use an entire post to educate instead of debate.

While Arminians and other non-Calvinists equate regeneration (being born again) with salvation, Calvinists do not. Calvinists hold that the Holy Spirit regenerates the spiritually dead sinner (quickens, makes alive), enabling that formerly spiritually dead center to repent of sin, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation. As a general proposition, Calvinists hold to HS regeneration, repentance and faith (two sides of the same coin), salvation, in that order.

Mixed in there are the Holy Spirit's work of illumination, conviction and drawing.

Non-Calvinists will oppose the sequence I have described. But let it be in opposition to the actual Calvinist position, not something made up, or concocted as a straw man.

You know something, I think I'm going to compile a list of straw men and other misrepresentations of the Calvinist position. We'll invite the Arminians and other non-Cals to review the list ahead of time and avoid being embarrassed later on.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

God's elect will be saved eternally with/without faith.

 

[psalms109:31]

Arragance

God's elect will be saved eternally with/without faith.

We are not to be arrogant but afraid if God did not spare the natural branches He will not spare us either.

Since those who have chosen themselves and call themselves the elect of God will be very disappointed when Jesus says I never knew you go away from me you evil doer.