Is Faith Necessary for Salvation?

[Blammo]

Sighhh.

Profitable give-and-take thrives when both sides of the discussion understand what the other side believes. When one side demonstrates ignorance of the the other's beliefs, or willfully misrepresents them, the discussion suffers.

Blammo, I prefer to believe it was not willful distortion when you stated that some Calvinists think salvation is necessary for faith. I do not know a single Calvinist who believes that, and I have never heard or read one who ever stated that.

Now I have to use an entire post to educate instead of debate.

While Arminians and other non-Calvinists equate regeneration (being born again) with salvation, Calvinists do not. Calvinists hold that the Holy Spirit regenerates the spiritually dead sinner (quickens, makes alive), enabling that formerly spiritually dead center to repent of sin, turn to Christ and trust him for salvation. As a general proposition, Calvinists hold to HS regeneration, repentance and faith (two sides of the same coin), salvation, in that order.

Mixed in there are the Holy Spirit's work of illumination, conviction and drawing.

Non-Calvinists will oppose the sequence I have described. But let it be in opposition to the actual Calvinist position, not something made up, or concocted as a straw man.

You know something, I think I'm going to compile a list of straw men and other misrepresentations of the Calvinist position. We'll invite the Arminians and other non-Cals to review the list ahead of time and avoid being embarrassed later on.

Thank you for your concern, but I am not embarrassed.

In Calvinist theology, what happens to a regenerated person who does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it possible a regenerated person would not have faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary? Doesn't your theology teach that only the elect are regernerated and saved without fail?

I think I saw this quote somewhere - "Faith is the fruit, not the root of salvation". Isn't that a no to the question "Is faith necessary for salvation?"

I'm going to have to go back and read some of your posts in this thread over again. I believe you put salvation before faith somewhere...

BTW, I am not trying to pick a fight. After discussing this with several different Calvinists, most of them have admitted to believing salvation preceeds faith. You are the first one to deny it.

 

[webdog]

God's elect will be saved eternally with/without faith.

This is as about as "hyper" as you get...and unfortunately, the logical conclusion to calvinism once all layers are peeled back.

 

[Tom Butler]

In Calvinist theology, what happens to a regenerated person who does not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it possible a regenerated person would not have faith in the finished work of Christ at Calvary? Doesn't your theology teach that only the elect are regernerated and saved without fail?

I think I saw this quote somewhere - "Faith is the fruit, not the root of salvation". Isn't that a no to the question "Is faith necessary for salvation?"

I'm going to have to go back and read some of your posts in this thread over again. I believe you put salvation before faith somewhere...

BTW, I am not trying to pick a fight. After discussing this with several different Calvinists, most of them have admitted to believing salvation preceeds faith. You are the first one to deny it.

My answers to your questions:
A regenerated person will believe. It is not possible that he won't.

Faith is necessary for salvation. It precedes salvation.

You won't have to re-read my posts. I have never said salvation precedes faith. If I ever said it, I was out of my mind, and repudiate it.

A Calvinist who says salvation precedes faith does not understand his own theology. He is wrong.

It's okay to pick a fight. You fight in a civil manner.

 

[Blammo]

MB said:
I realize your view is a reformed theology doctrine but I'm not a reformer.

That's the reason we will have a hard time agreeing on the placement of faith in the salvation sequence.

That's the reason non-reformed folks will do all they can to explain away John 1:13..."...not of the will of man..." to preserve the view of man's free will to choose.

It's why Acts 16:15 presents a problem, because it speaks of the Lord's opening Lydia's heart so she could understand and "attend" what Paul was teaching. Lydia did not, yes, could not undertand, until God acted. Lydia's saving faith came only after God had acted first to make that faith possible.

Up to my last post, I had avoided trying to insert Calvinism into the discussion, for once it gets in, the thread gets hijacked. I did so only in response to a question. And I don't want to chase this reformed rabbit any further to avoid hijacking.

I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said "the reason we will have a hard time agreeing on the placement of faith in the salvation sequence". When I reread this, I noticed you said God gave "saving faith" to Lydia.

I still don't understand how faith precedes salvation in your view. It seems pretty clear to me, in your view, God has saved a person once He regenerates them.

("Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it." - JOHN PIPER)

I am not trying to tell you what you believe. I am telling you what I think you believe. If I am wrong I apologize. It just seems like "saving faith", in your view, is automatic. No matter where you place it in your sequence, it is not necessary for salvation, it is a result of salvation.

 

[Tom Butler]

I guess I misunderstood what you meant when you said "the reason we will have a hard time agreeing on the placement of faith in the salvation sequence". When I reread this, I noticed you said God gave "saving faith" to Lydia.

I still don't understand how faith precedes salvation in your view. It seems pretty clear to me, in your view, God has saved a person once He regenerates them.

("Faith is the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it." - JOHN PIPER)

I am not trying to tell you what you believe. I am telling you what I think you believe. If I am wrong I apologize. It just seems like "saving faith", in your view, is automatic. No matter where you place it in your sequence, it is not necessary for salvation, it is a result of salvation.

To clarify, I agree with John Piper.

Again, in my view, regeneration and salvation are not the same. It is regeneration (the new birth) which changes a heart of stone and enables it to freely, without coercion, repent and turn from sin and believe in the finished work of Jesus. Salvation follows faith. Now, the sequence could happen in a split-second, but that's the sequence I hold.

That is what happened to Lydia. The Lord opened her heart and she "attended" the things Paul was saying. Lydia (Acts 16:14) worshiped God, but until did not know Jesus until the Lord opened her heart.

 

[Blammo]

To clarify, I agree with John Piper.

Again, in my view, regeneration and salvation are not the same. It is regeneration (the new birth) which changes a heart of stone and enables it to freely, without coercion, repent and turn from sin and believe in the finished work of Jesus. Salvation follows faith. Now, the sequence could happen in a split-second, but that's the sequence I hold.

That is what happened to Lydia. The Lord opened her heart and she "attended" the things Paul was saying. Lydia (Acts 16:14) worshiped God, but until did not know Jesus until the Lord opened her heart.

Thanks, Tom.

I suspect all of the Calvinists I have discussed this with hold the same view. I guess I have always equated the new birth with salvation. Thus, the misunderstanding.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

God's elect will be saved eternally with/without faith.

I am sorry to inform you but you are dead wrong. God is consistent with himself and the Word. The Word of God makes it clear that faith is the means by which the atonement is applied. Without the atonement there is no means of salvation.

 

[psalms109:31]

Eyes wide open

We can have are eyes opened by Jesus and still reject what He has to say , and put our veil we have made back over our eyes and turn away from Jesus. When we come to Jesus we are given a choice and consequences to believe in Jesus and be save or not and be condemned.

God has placed life and death in front of you, so choose Jesus and live.

God does want all men to be saved and come to te knowledge of the truth, and we are His messeger.

We are regenerated by faith not regenerated into faith.

 

[Tom Butler]

I guess I have always equated the new birth with salvation. Thus, the misunderstanding.

I'm glad to help clear it up. I know you do not agree with it, but it is good to know exactly what you're against.

 

[Blammo]

I'm glad to help clear it up. I know you do not agree with it, but it is good to know exactly what you're against.

I'm not sure I am totally against it, Tom, I am still working on it. I am stuck somewhere between. I believe there is an abundance of Scriptural proof for your views. I just can't quite go all the way over to Calvinism. At least not yet... something is missing, some peice of the puzzle that I can't quite figure out.

 

[PrmtvBptst1832]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: Would you be so kind as to supply me with a book, chapter, and verse to support your claim?

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm not sure I am totally against it, Tom, I am still working on it. I am stuck somewhere between. I believe there is an abundance of Scriptural proof for your views. I just can't quite go all the way over to Calvinism. At least not yet... something is missing, some peice of the puzzle that I can't quite figure out.

I've been there. I hope some day you'll be able to find those missing pieces. If I may, I suggest that you weigh what Calvinists say about themselves rather than weigh the arguments against it.

Then weigh what the Arminians and other non-Calvinists say about their views, not what the Calvinists say about those views.

Then, see if you can study the Scriptures cited by each side without filtering them through any pre-conceived notions about free will, God's fairness and foreknowledge.

Blammo, I was 60 years old when some of my ideas about modern Baptist ecclesiology, soul winning, and methodology underwent a radical re-evaluation. Things I viewed as normal, even sacred, failed to survive when measured against the word of God. You can imagine how traumatic that was, and still is, to have some of my precious beliefs wither under the light of God's word.

May the Holy Spirit guide you in your search for truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Blammo

Blammo I too have found too many holes in it to and when I show where there hole is they reconcile it into thier doctrine. The hardest people Jesus had to reach was church leaders, but the people who followed Jesus was prostitutes and tax collectors who were scum to the church leaders.

I know if i hold firmly to what God has convinced me of in my youth all other scriptures makes sence to me.

If God didn't love the world than He wouldn't of loved me and I would have no hope.

The more they try to convince me that He didn't love the world the more they make God into a liar and a deceiver. I know He has hidden the truth from the wise and made it simple for a child. Why would God deceive us into believing that God loved the world to later on in maturity to say He really didn't

We are to trust in Jesus and we will not be disappointed.

I love this scripture.

Romans 5:
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

 

[Allan]

That is what happened to Lydia. The Lord opened her heart and she "attended" the things Paul was saying. Lydia (Acts 16:14) worshiped God, but until did not know Jesus until the Lord opened her heart.

I do wish my Calvinist brethren would stop using this poor woman in their analogy of regeneration bring us to salvation. Please stop reading INTO scripture what is not there.

John 1 - This is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

It is no surprize that AFTER she heard them there was a change and NOT BEFORE: seeing that scripture states - faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God, and that ThY Word is a lamp or light and Jesus is That Light that lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the World.

It was THEN (after hearing) the Lord opened Her heart BUT it was still up to her to recieve or leave that which they proclaimed.

This verse does not deal in any fashion with regeneration but with opening or enlightening and this deals specifically with hearing the Word of God. But man is resposible for what he does with that truth he understands.

Psa 81:8 Hear, O my people, and I will testify unto thee: O Israel, if thou wilt hearken unto me;
Psa 81:9 There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.
Psa 81:10 I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
Psa 81:11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
Psa 81:12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: [and] they walked in their own counsels.
Psa 81:13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, [and] Israel had walked in my ways!

Does it sound like God ordained them to turn from Him or does it sound like After God gave them truth they were resposible with whether or not they would obey it? This is only one of a great many scripture verses that show God does reach out but this does not mean man will always respond in the positive nor does it mean man will what God would that they SHOULD do. Though God is not caught off guard and knows how they will respond it still does not grieve the Lord who longs for His creation to obey unto repentence and righteousness.

God called to Lydia via the Word and the Spirit opened her heart to understand but Lydia obey the Truth unto salvation.

The view of regeneration before salvation has never been a provable doctrince and therefore has always remained a view. I respect this view but do not believe scripturally the view holds water.

Regeneration is something that deals with the New man BUT the New man is the result of salvation not vise versa. We are a new man IN Christ and not before.

So this NEW Nature where by that indiviual has been changed into gives that person no option but to believe as they CAN NOT, NOT believe now that they are changed. If this is not the most extreme version of Coersion I don't know what is.

 

[Bro. James]

Who to blame for the lost

The short list: no one--placing blame is a diversionary smoke screen--all of those accountable must give an account--no finger pointing allowed.
Now what?

Preach The Word--let the Holy Spirit take care of the quickening or the lack thereof. All of the sheep will be gathered into the fold.

If we do not preach it--God may have already sent some one else--none of the sheep will be lost--we will be rewarded, or suffer loss(not salvation) at the Bema Seat(no lost at Bema).

All of our righteousness is filthy rags.

Now what?

Choose wisely,

Bro. James

Sorry, I just woke up and realized this may be the the wrong thread.

 

[Tom Butler]

Allen,
One reason Calvinists cite Lydia's conversion is the sequence Luke lays out in Acts 16:14.

The Lord opened her heart. She "attended," what Paul told her. What did Paul tell her. About Jesus. That's what she received.

Notice that it does not say the Lord opened her heart and then she decided to attend. The Lord opened so that she would attend. Her receiving Paul's teaching was the direct result of the Lord's work on her heart.

Was it a free choice? Yep. An uncoerced exercise of her will? Yep.

You also said"
God called to Lydia via the Word and the Spirit opened her heart to understand but Lydia obey the Truth unto salvation.

Agreed. Obeying the truth unto salvation is necessary. Because God opened her heart, she did. But not until.

 

[Allan]

Allen,
[/B]Agreed. Obeying the truth unto salvation is necessary. Because God opened her heart, she did. But not until.

Agreed as well but this is not about regeneration or the creating within her a new man/nature/creation.

It is about God opening her understanding and this comes via hearing the Word of God.
Notice God did not open her understanding first THEN she heard and attended. If this was the case then I would agree about regeneration before salvation but it is never the case.

 

[Tom Butler]

Agreed as well but this is not about regeneration or the creating within her a new man/nature/creation.

It is about God opening her understanding and this comes via hearing the Word of God.
Notice God did not open her understanding first THEN she heard and attended. If this was the case then I would agree about regeneration before salvation but it is never the case.

Actually, it is.

Notice the sequence. Paul taught the word, the Lord opened her heart, she believed in Jesus. Now, God could have opened he heart first, then sent Paul to teach her. Either way, God acted unilaterally prior to her believing. That's my point.

 

[Allan]

I understand but opening or revealing is not creating within them a New Man or regenerating someone and it never will be brother.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian: Would you be so kind as to supply me with a book, chapter, and verse to support your claim?

Quit trying to import your hyper-Calvinism. What you are arguing is refereed to as eternal justification. I do not have to quote you anything, your view is way out of the bounds of evangelical Christianity. If anything you need to show me, where someone can be saved apart from faith. This thread is not about the extent of the atonement, it is about the indispensable nature of the Gospel for salvation.