Is Faith "requirement" to be saved by God?

[kyredneck]

.... sounds like pre-faith regeneration, which is biblically impossible.....

'Biblically' this sounds like:

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...."

'Biblically' the truth is:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow...thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit"

"...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

'Pre-faith regeneration' is not only exactly 'biblical' it is an absolute necessity.

IMHHO. One is not given life until they believe.

IMHO, the irrationality of such a statement should be apparent. Dead men do nothing.

One can not believe w/o faith.

IMHO, another irrational statement. 'Biblically', show the difference between the two. Romans 4 immediately comes to mind.

 

[OldRegular]

To be moved from unbelief to belief is the work of God.

Well said and it is called regeneration followed by the gift of faith.

Sometimes while flipping channels i come across John Hagee. When he wants a little praise for his preaching he will say "Give God the Glory." Why not give God the Glory on this forum and simply concede that Salvation is all of and by the Triune God? All Praise and Glory to Him! It is God alone who "hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:6

 

[psalms109:31]

I know why i am a Spurgeon calvinist who proved that regeneration before faith like free will is ridiculous. There is only our wicked ways our will and God's will no other will. As Jesus said not my will but His Fathers will be done.

To Spurgeon the Gospel message, the Gospel of Calvinism the whole of it can be summed up in one verse.

1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

Yes praise Jesus He came to save someone who is wicked an unregenerated evil person like me.

We come to Him just the way you are wicked evil unregenerated when He calls you through the word of God unbelieving person who has no idea what to believe in, believe in Jesus having nothing to believe in until you listen and learn from His word it is His work that we believe.

We have no life in us until we eat His flesh and drink His blood come as you are.

The one who gets glory is the one who saves not the savie.

No life means you are dead the only life is in the words that is calling you eat and drink and live or do not and die.

God said, it is not our will or our choice it is the choice and the will of God that those who trust in His Son will be saved, you can either live by the will of God or die by your own will. I pray that you let His will be done not your own.

The Spirit and life is in the words of Jesus you do not know where it comes from or where it is going , but follow it listen and learn from it and you will have life eternal.

 

[kyredneck]

---------delete-never mind---------------

 

[OldRegular]

psalms109:31

It is true that Jesus Christ came to save sinners and he does save them. However, a spiritually dead man is just that, dead in trespass and sin. [Ephesians 2:1-8] Just as a man physically dead cannot change his state so a man spiritually dead cannot change his state, therefore God must intervene, making that which is spiritually dead spiritually alive! Thank God He does!

 

[psalms109:31]

---------delete-never mind---------------

"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

C. H. Spurgeon


We are born again through the enduring words of God the work of the Spirit which is not in us but in Him and His words. Jesus word is Spirit and life there is no life in us only in Him. That person who has never heard the words of life is dead and not regenerated. If we reject the word of life we are dead. The life in us is His word the seed that plants in us and grows to eternal life with in us through Jesus Christ

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous, if they are regenerated they are already saved and we have no need for us to preach to them.

As the scripture has said,

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

 

[convicted1]

'Biblically' this sounds like:

"Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof...."

'Biblically' the truth is:

"the Spirit where he willeth doth blow...thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit"

"...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

'Pre-faith regeneration' is not only exactly 'biblical' it is an absolute necessity.



IMHO, the irrationality of such a statement should be apparent. Dead men do nothing.



IMHO, another irrational statement. 'Biblically', show the difference between the two. Romans 4 immediately comes to mind.

Brother, spiritual death is not equal to a "flat-lined" soul. If that were the case, we would be completely dead. The soul is what keeps our physical body alive. Once it is seperated from the body, our natural fleshly frame is dead because the soul has become seperated from it. This is what spiritual death is; being seperated from God. It's a hyperbole showing us being seperated from God because of our sins.

 

[convicted1]

"1. First, NEGATIVELY; and here my first observation is that any other way of preaching the gospel-warrant is absurd. If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners. "Nay," saith one, "but we mean that a man must have some good desires towards Christ before he has any warrant to believe in Jesus." Friend, do you not know what all good desires have some degree of holiness in them? But if a sinner hath any degree of true holiness in him it must be the work of the Spirit, for true holiness never exists in the carnal mind, therefore, that man is already renewed, and therefore saved. Are we to go running up and down the world, proclaiming life to the living, casting bread to those who are fed already, and holding up Christ on the pole of the gospel to those who are already healed? My brethren, where is our inducement to labour where our efforts are so little needed? If I am to preach Christ to those who have no goodness, who have nothing in them that qualifies them for mercy, then I feel I have a gospel so divine that I would proclaim it with my last breath, crying aloud, that "Jesus came into the world to save sinners"—sinners as sinners, not as penitent sinners or as awakened sinners, but sinners as sinners, sinners "of whom I am chief."

C. H. Spurgeon


We are born again through the enduring words of God the work of the Spirit which is not in us but in Him and His words. Jesus word is Spirit and life there is no life in us only in Him. That person who has never heard the words of life is dead and not regenerated. If we reject the word of life we are dead. The life in us is His word the seed that plants in us and grows to eternal life with in us through Jesus Christ

Regeneration before faith is ridiculous, if they are regenerated they are already saved and we have no need for us to preach to them.

As the scripture has said,

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Amen, amen, amen, amen, AND amen!! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

It is true that Jesus Christ came to save sinners and he does save them. However, a spiritually dead man is just that, dead in trespass and sin. [Ephesians 2:1-8] Just as a man physically dead cannot change his state so a man spiritually dead cannot change his state, therefore God must intervene, making that which is spiritually dead spiritually alive! Thank God He does!

I will use the same post that I responded to Brother Larry with:

Brother, spiritual death is not equal to a "flat-lined" soul. If that were the case, we would be completely dead. The soul is what keeps our physical body alive. Once it is seperated from the body, our natural fleshly frame is dead because the soul has become seperated from it. This is what spiritual death is; being seperated from God. It's a hyperbole showing us being seperated from God because of our sins.

A dead man can do nothing? Try telling that to Adam and Eve, Cain, and Abraham, just to name a few. Now, they can not save themselves(none of us can/could), but they were dead in trespasses and sins, and yet they heard God when He spoke to them. Even the rich man in hell communed with Father Abraham. So yes, a spiritually dead person, can, and does, hear God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello willis,

A dead man can do nothing? Try telling that to Adam and Eve, Cain, and Abraham, just to name a few. Now, they can not save themselves(none of us can/could), but they were dead in trespasses and sins, and yet they heard God when He spoke to them. Even the rich man in hell communed with Father Abraham. So yes, a spiritually dead person, can, and does, hear God.

Willis...just a reminder.....dean men can be religious,and do many things.

When cals say dead men can do nothing.....they mean nothing to save themself by......they do things.....but things that God does not desire,or require.......They cannot saving believe and repent,unless God grants that to them.

they can light candles, bow down to the pope, call him and priests father, worship mary, walk the aisle, sign a card....make believe they are speaking in tongues, sing in the mormon taberncale choir......but they do not want to
come to God in Spirit and Truth:wavey:

 

[OldRegular]

A Sermon
(No. 130)
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, May 3, 1857, by the
REV. C.*H. Spurgeon
at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens.

From: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

"Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God."—John 3:3.

In daily life our thoughts are most occupied with things that are most necessary for our existence. No one murmured that the subject of the price of bread was frequently on the lips of men at a time of scarcity, because they felt that the subject was one of vital importance to the mass of the population? and therefore they murmured not, though they listened to continual declamatory speeches, and read perpetual articles in the newspapers concerning it. I must offer the same excuse, then, for bringing before you this morning the subject of regeneration. It is one of absolute and vital importance; it is the hinge of the gospel; it is the point upon which most Christians are agreed, yea, all who are Christians in sincerity and truth. It is a subject which lies at the very basis of salvation. It is the very groundwork of our hopes for heaven; and as we ought to be very careful of the basement of our structure, so should we be very diligent to take heed that we are really born again, and that we have made sure work of it for eternity. There are many who fancy they are born again who are not. It well becomes us, then, frequently to examine ourselves; and it is the minister's duty to bring forward those subjects which lead to self-examination, and have a tendency to search the heart and try the reins of the children of men.

To proceed at once, I shall first make some remarks upon the new birth; secondly, I shall note what is meant by not being able to see the kingdom of God if we are not born again; then I shall go further on to note why it is that "except we are born again we can not see the kingdom of God;" and then expostulate with men as God's ambassador before I close.

I. First, then, THE MATTER OF REGENERATION. In endeavoring to explain it, I must have you notice, first of all, the figure that is employed. It is said a man must be born again. I can not illustrate this better than by supposing a case. Suppose that in England there should be a law passed, that admission to royal courts, preference in office, and any privileges that might belong to the nation, could only be given to persons who were born in England—suppose that birth in this land was made a sine qua non, and it was definitely declared that whatever men might do or be, unless they were native born subjects of England they could not enter into her majesty's presence, and could enjoy none of the emoluments or offices of the state, nor any of the privileges of citizens.

==================[material deleted]=================

You are uncharitable Mr. Spurgeon. I do not care what you say about that, I never wish to be more charitable than Christ. I did not say this; Christ said it. If you have any quarrel with him, settle it there ; I am not the maker of this truth, but simply the speaker of it. I find it written, "Except a man be born. again, be can not see the kingdom of God." If your footman should go to the door, and deliver your message correctly, the man at the door might abuse him never so much, but the footman would say, "Sir, do not abuse me, I can not help it; I can only tell you what my master told me. I am not the originator of it." So if you think me uncharitable, remember you do not accuse me, you accuse Christ; you are not finding fault with the messenger, you are finding fault with the message; Christ has said it—"Except a man be born again." I can not dispute with you, and shall not try. That is simply God's Word. Reject it at your peril. Believe it and receive it, I entreat you, because it comes from the lips of the Most High.

But now note the manner in which this regeneration is obtained. I think I have none here so profoundly stupid as to be Puseyites I can scarcely believe that I have been the means of attracting one person here, so utterly devoid of every remnant of brain, as to believe the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Yet I must just hint at it. There be some who teach that by a few drops of water sprinkled on an infant's brow the infant becomes regenerate.

==================[material deleted]=================

But some say all are regenerate when they are baptized. Well, if you think so, stick to your own thoughts; I can not help it. Simon Magus was certainly one exception; he was baptized on a profession of his faith; but so far from being regenerated by his baptism, we find Paul saying, "I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity." And yet he was one of those regenerates, because he had been baptized. Ah! that doctrine only needs to be stated to sensible men, and they will at once reject it. Gentlemen that are fond of a filigree religion, and like ornament and show; gentlemen of the high Beau Brummel school will very likely prefer this religion, because they have cultivated their taste at the expense of their brain, and have forgotten that what is consistent with the sound judgment of a man can not be consistent with the Word of God. So much for the first point.

Neither is a man regenerated, we say, in the next place, by his own exertions. A man may reform himself very much, and that is well and good; let all do that. A man may cast away many vices, forsake many lusts in which he indulged, and conquer evil habits; but no man in the world can make himself to be born in God; though he should struggle never so much, he could never accomplish what is beyond his power. And, mark you, if he could make himself to be born again still he would not enter heaven, because there is another point in the condition which he would have violated—"unless a man be born of the Spirit, he can not see the kingdom of God." So that the best exertions of the flesh do not reach this high point, the being born again of the Spirit of God.

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."

Goodness gracious, Spurgen preaches that Regeneration is a supernatural act of God: God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation. "What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?"

 

[OldRegular]

One more time!

ON REGENERATION

Charles H. Spurgeon

From: http://www.founders.org/journal/fj48/article5_fr.html

[Some of the language has been updated for the modern reader.]

The first work of the Spirit in the heart is a work during which the Spirit is compared to the wind. You remember that when our Savior spoke to Nicodemus he represented the first work of the Spirit in the heart as being like the wind that "blows where it wishes;" "so" he says, "is every one who is born of the Spirit." Now you know that the wind is a most mysterious thing; and although certain definitions pretend to explain the phenomenon, all of them leave the great question of how the wind blows, and the cause of its blowing in a certain direction, where it was before. Breath within us, winds around us, all air movements are mysterious to us. And the renewing work of the Spirit in the heart is exceedingly mysterious.

It is possible that at this moment the Spirit of God may be breathing into some of the thousand hearts before me; yet it would be blasphemous if anyone should ask, "Which way did the Spirit of God enter into such a heart? How did it enter there?" And it would be foolish for a person who is under the operation of the Spirit to ask how it operates: you do not know where the storehouse of thunder is located; you do not know where the clouds are balanced; neither can you know how the Spirit goes forth from the Most High and enters into the heart of man.

It may be that during a sermon two men are listening to the same truth; one of them hears as attentively as the other and remembers as much of it; the other is melted to tears or moved with solemn thoughts; but the one, though equally attentive, sees nothing in the sermon except that certain important truths were clearly declared; as for the other, his heart is broken within him and his soul is melted. Ask me how it is that the same truth has an effect upon the one, and not upon his fellow: I reply, because the mysterious Spirit of the living God goes with the truth to one heart and not to the other. The one only feels the force of truth, and that may be strong enough to make him tremble, like Felix; but the other feels the Spirit going with the truth, and that renews and regenerates him, and causes him to enter into that gracious condition which is called the state of salvation.

This change takes place instantaneously. It is as miraculous a change as any miracle we read about in Scripture. It is supremely supernatural. It may be mimicked, but no imitation can be true and real. Men may pretend to be regenerated without the Spirit, but they cannot be regenerated in actuality. It is a change so marvelous that the highest attempts of man can never reach it. We may reason as long as we please, but we cannot reason ourselves into regeneration; we may meditate until our hairs are gray with study; but we cannot meditate ourselves into the new birth. The new birth is accomplished in us by the sovereign will of God alone.

"The Spirit, like some heavenly wind,
Blows on the sons of flesh,
Inspires us with a heavenly mind,
And forms the man afresh."

Ask the regenerate man how: he cannot tell you. Ask him when: he may recognize the time, but as to how he knows no more than you do. It is a mystery.
.

 

[percho]

The Lamb without spot and without blemish.
The only begotten of the Father conceived in the virgin Mary and she brought forth her first born son and they called his name Jesus the one seed of Abraham the seed of David, he who knew no sin yet was made to be sin for us, died for us. He was paid the wages of sin! In the day thou eat thereof, "dying thou shall surely die," said God and the Lamb had already been considered slain.

Was there any hope for this Lamb, for this man, the Son of God.

In about the same time frame it was decided the Lamb was to be slain, there was a promise made. The promise of, the hope, of eternal life.

Did this dead man, the only begotten of the Father God have to be regenerated, that is made alive again?

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Gal 3:23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law,
Gal 3:25 But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. (under the law) --------You are now under grace.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

What took place that moved one from under the law to under grace. Was grace, God the Father giving his Son Jesus eternal life the thing hopped for
that came through his obedience unto death?


By Grace through the faith.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. (Acts 8:36-38)

 

[psalms109:31]

Regeneration before faith is still ridiculous, without the word of life the word of God that we are born again by we are not regenerated.

The Spirit works in our heart through the word of God which Jesus word is Spirit and life and we are the messenger of it and we who believe are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are Christ messenger, ambassador, representative as though God were making His appeal through us.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

 

[convicted1]

Regeneration before faith is still ridiculous, without the word of life the word of God that we are born again by we are not regenerated.

The Spirit works in our heart through the word of God which Jesus word is Spirit and life and we are the messenger of it and we who believe are the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are Christ messenger, ambassador, representative as though God were making His appeal through us.

Romans 10:14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

Right on the $$$$$ again!! :applause::thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

Hello willis,

Hello Brother Iconoclast.

Willis...just a reminder.....dean men can be religious,and do many things.

Agreed.

When cals say dead men can do nothing.....they mean nothing to save themself by......they do things.....but things that God does not desire,or require.......They cannot saving believe and repent,unless God grants that to them.

Agreed.

they can light candles, bow down to the pope, call him and priests father, worship mary, walk the aisle, sign a card....make believe they are speaking in tongues, sing in the mormon taberncale choir......but they do not want to come to God in Spirit and Truth:wavey:

I agree with everything you have stated in this post.


Where the nose meets the grindstone is this; don't yall say that you have to be regenerated to hear God calling? This is what I have gathered from the numerous posts, but I could be wrong. A spiritually dead person can, and does hear God. Look @ Adam & Eve, Cain, the rich man, the rich young ruler, shoot, even Lucifer/satan. Hearing is what brings life, and not life brings hearing.

 

[kyredneck]

Brother, spiritual death is not equal to a "flat-lined" soul. If that were the case, we would be completely dead. The soul is what keeps our physical body alive. Once it is seperated from the body, our natural fleshly frame is dead because the soul has become seperated from it. This is what spiritual death is; being seperated from God. It's a hyperbole showing us being seperated from God because of our sins.

....Where the nose meets the grindstone is this; don't yall say that you have to be regenerated to hear God calling? This is what I have gathered from the numerous posts, but I could be wrong. A spiritually dead person can, and does hear God. Look @ Adam & Eve, Cain, the rich man, the rich young ruler, shoot, even Lucifer/satan. Hearing is what brings life, and not life brings hearing.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

Question for you. From the above passage; which comes first, receiving Christ or being born of God? Which is the absolute necessity here, receiving Christ first or the birth from above?

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

Another question for you. From the above passage; which comes first, hearing or being born of God? Which is the absolute necessity here, hearing first or the birth from above?

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jn 10

Another question for you. From the above passage; which comes first, believing or being born of God? Which is the absolute necessity here, believing first or the birth from above?

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

Another question for you. From the above passage; which comes first, knowing or being born of God? Which is the absolute necessity here, knowing first or the birth from above?

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus` sake.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

Another question for you. From the above passage; which comes first, the knowledge of the gospel or being born of God? Which is the absolute necessity here, knowing the gospel first or the birth from above?

Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

One must first be made alive, dead men can do nothing. Except they FIRST be born from above they cannot enter or even see the kingdom of God. That is a true and 'biblical' statement.

 

[OldRegular]

Where the nose meets the grindstone is this; don't yall say that you have to be regenerated to hear God calling? This is what I have gathered from the numerous posts, but I could be wrong. A spiritually dead person can, and does hear God. Look @ Adam & Eve, Cain, the rich man, the rich young ruler, shoot, even Lucifer/satan. Hearing is what brings life, and not life brings hearing.

Hearing is what brings life,

That is a very broad statement convicted1. It could be interpreted to mean that all who hear the "sound" of the Gospel is saved. Is that what you mean? If not just what does

Hearing is what brings life,

mean.

I realize that Scripture teaches that even the dead hear the voice of God.

John 5:25, KJV
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Is John teaching in this passage that the physically dead hear, or is it the spiritually dead? There is a more significant question: Is this promise universal? I would like you to explain this passage from the Arminian viewpoint.

 

[Allan]

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house. Acts 16:30, 31

You seem to misunderstand completely what 'works' are and what scripture states it is not.

Now.. first READ Rom 4:3-6.. and note that works are defined as that which is done to earn something, or obtain for something.. in other words, something done in order to receive compensation. Faith does not do this thus faith is not a work. If you wish to argue with me fine, but please deal with scripture and that passage SPECIFICALLY.

There is a difference biblically between 'work' (as in doing something to earn God favor or reward) and a 'work' as in something that is your responsibility irregardless of reward or favor, an activity.

Christ was asked:

“What must we do, that we may work the works of God?”

Christ replied:

“This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

It seems pretty straight forward to me. Our belief/faith is a work which is well pleasing to God.

I agree, it seems very straight forward so I don't understand how you come to your conclusion that 'faith is a work'.

They desired to know what deeds need to be done in order to earn God's love toward them. Faith is not a work in that sense, it can only seen as 'work' in the sense regarding your responsibility toward God's truths He has revealed. Jesus answer, though putting a twist on their own words (..works of God..), was establishing that God is not seeking deeds but faith in Christ whom God sent. You will note how His answer to them sums up their question and God's requirement as Westcost summerizes: "This simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works”. You can do not works/activity to please God unless you do them in faith. Thus the work of God is not a plural (doing a list of things or following rules and codes) but is in fact singular, that all things must be done in faith, and specifically in the one whom God sent - Jesus. This is why you note their answering Him, by asking what sign does He give that He is sent by God.

Now watch.. in light of this, note what your commentators state and see how they agree with me

Gill:

Ver. 29. Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God,.... The main and principal one, and which is well pleasing in his sight; and without which it is impossible to please him; and without which no work whatever is a good work; and this is of the operation of God, which he himself works in men; it is not of themselves, it is the pure gift of God:

that ye believe on him whom he hath sent; there are other works which are well pleasing to God, when rightly performed, but faith is the chief work, and others are only acceptable when done in the faith of Christ. This, as a principle, is purely God's work; as it is an act, or as it is exercised under the influence of divine grace, it is man's act: "that ye believe"; the object of it is Christ, as sent by the Father, as the Mediator between God and men, as appointed by him to be the Saviour and Redeemer; and believing in Christ, is believing in God that sent him. The Jews reduce all the six hundred and thirteen precepts of the law, for so many they say there are, to this one, "the just shall live by his faith", Hab 2:4. {e

While I disagree with Gill regarding his definition of 'faith being a gift of God' I Do Not disagree with the fact of it. But in any case you will note his above is in fact stating what I have been regarding the definition of 'work'. No work (man doing something looking for reward) can be done that is pleasing to God without faith. In other words, the only Godly work is one done in faith and that faith, in Christ Jesus. Gill sort of muddies the waters in how he uses the term 'works' without giving better clarity, but it is without doubt he is not saying faith is a 'work', in the same sense the Paul describes it in Romans 4, and is consistently seen as you read it all together.

JFB:

29 This is the work of God--That lies at the threshold of all acceptable obedience, being not only the prerequisite to it, but the proper spring of it--in that sense, the work of works, emphatically "the work of God."

You are horribly misunderstanding these guys. They are not stating the faith is a work (something done looking for reward).. note the very first thing they state and read the rest in context.

On a side bar but an interesting point of interest - You do realize regarding the passage in question, according to the Greek it is actually stating - This is the work of God, that you [may keep on] believing.. - Not come to a belief but 'that you may keep on believing]. Note Reformed Greek Scholar A.T. Robtinson's statement on the Greek wording here:

...(to ergon tou theou hina pisteuēte)... Note the present active subjunctive pisteuēte, “that ye may keep on believing.”

It is just something I found interesting. ANYWAY...

Clarke:

Verse 28. "That we might work the works of God?" - That is, Divine works, or such as God can approve.

Verse 29. "This is the work of God, that ye believe" - There is nothing you can be employed in more acceptable to God than in yielding to the evidence set before you, and acknowledging me as your Messiah and the saviour of a lost world.

This here makes my point yet again. It isn't stating faith is work, but actually states "..nothing can be employed in more acceptable to God than yielding to the evidence.. and acknowledging..." He never states faith is a work but in fact contradicts the this very sentiment.

No, in truth, it does NOT affirm any such thing. In truth, the line between genuine faith and acceptable works, BOTH of which spring forth by nature from the heart which has had the law written upon it (read born from above), is a very fine if not blurred one:

Sorry but again you are wrong even in your own quotation.. and in fact it is a VERY CLEAR line.

....the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2:4

Yet we are made righteous by faith according to Romans.

....the doers of the law shall be justified Ro 2:13

And yet according to Romans we are justified by faith

....I by my works will show thee my faith.

Again, you have to understand what kind of 'works' is being talked about here and thus better understand how 'faith' fits into the subject. He was not speaking of working to be approved by God nor working seeking God's favor, but that if one has genuine faith they will be doing something with it. Faith (in the verb sense) is living a changed life and if you are not living it out, you have no genuine faith.

...by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2:18, 24

Justified according to what? Are you partial to a works based salvation? I don't believe you are and neither was James. The justification here isn't speaking of salvic (salvation) but of whether or not one was a believer and they are justified in calling themselves one, or proven guiltless on the subject.
Faith AND works have the same origin, the heart circumcised not with hands.