Is Faith "requirement" to be saved by God?

[percho]

I don't know what this post has to do with the OP, but if you want off the merry go round, just move on to a different thread.

Would you trust me that I believe it to be relative?

I will have a few more questions and thoughts but was trying to keep the posts shorter for clarity.

If any is interested they can answer or just keep on riding.

"Hey look kids, there's Big Ben," ...
Clark Griswold:

 

[convicted1]

"Hey look kids, there's Big Ben," ...
Clark Griswold:

.........and the Paraliamint....:smilewinkgrin: by Clark W. Griswold

 

[kyredneck]

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment. 1 Jn 3:23

You seem to misunderstand completely what 'works' are and what scripture states it is not.

Now.. first READ Rom 4:3-6.. and note that works are defined as that which is done to earn something, or obtain for something.. in other words, something done in order to receive compensation. Faith does not do this thus faith is not a work. If you wish to argue with me fine, but please deal with scripture and that passage SPECIFICALLY.

YOU don't hold to 'duty faith'? I know that you do.

I agree with the articulation given by JFB:

“3. For what saith the, Scripture? Abraham believed God, and it--his faith.
was counted to him for righteousness--( Genesis 15:6 ). Romish expositors and Arminian Protestants make this to mean that God accepted Abraham's act of believing as a substitute for complete obedience. But this is at variance with the whole spirit and letter of the apostle's teaching. Throughout this whole argument, faith is set in direct opposition to works, in the matter of justification--and even in Romans 4:4 Romans 4:5 . The meaning, therefore, cannot possibly be that the mere act of believing--which is as much a work as any other piece of commanded duty ( John 6:29 , 1 John 3:23 )--was counted to Abraham for all obedience. The meaning plainly is that Abraham believed in the promises which embraced Christ ( Genesis 12:3 , 15:5 , &c.), as we believe in Christ Himself; and in both cases, faith is merely the instrument that puts us in possession of the blessing gratuitously bestowed.”

Wouldn't you agree that their comment concerning 'Arminian Protestants' applies to you?

There is a difference biblically between 'work' (as in doing something to earn God favor or reward) and a 'work' as in something that is your responsibility irregardless of reward or favor, an activity.

I agree there is a biblical contrast between doing something to earn favor with God and doing something that comes with no thought of recompense. Real, bona fide, acceptable, works [should] come as natural to His redeemed born from above children as a duck to water:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

These works come so natural to them that they oftentimes have no cognizance of performing them:

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?
38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? Mt 25

Yea, it was the Samaritan who acted out of compassion (read agape from the circumcised heart) to help him who had fallen to the robbers; the priest and the Levite went to the other side of the road and walked on by. Yea, 'not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified'.

I agree, it seems very straight forward so I don't understand how you come to your conclusion that 'faith is a work'.

Once again, YOU don't hold to DUTY FAITH?

I don't understand how you come to your conclusion that faith is NOT a work when scripture shows that it is, and it's source is the same as works, the heart that has had the law written upon it.

They desired to know what deeds need to be done in order to earn God's love toward them. Faith is not a work in that sense, it can only seen as 'work' in the sense regarding your responsibility toward God's truths He has revealed. Jesus answer, though putting a twist on their own words (..works of God..), was establishing that God is not seeking deeds but faith in Christ whom God sent. You will note how His answer to them sums up their question and God's requirement as Westcost summerizes: "This simple formula contains the complete solution of the relation of faith and works”. You can do not works/activity to please God unless you do them in faith. Thus the work of God is not a plural (doing a list of things or following rules and codes) but is in fact singular, that all things must be done in faith, and specifically in the one whom God sent - Jesus. This is why you note their answering Him, by asking what sign does He give that He is sent by God.

Your perspective on faith requires that only those who have heard the gospel and made a profession are capable of good works. This is wrong. The Spirit where He wills doth blow, He is not confined or restrained to only where the gospel is preached. Not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. That's just as true now as it was then.

Now watch.. in light of this, note what your commentators state and see how they agree with me

No, my quote from JFB above shows them soundly in agreement with me,”... believing--which is as much a work as any other piece of commanded duty...”.

While I disagree with Gill regarding his definition of 'faith being a gift of God'

You make faith to be your personal choice, your own will, and that's wrong. That is NOT biblical. This is the source of faith, and it is as Gill says, a gift of God:

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Heb 12:2

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3:22

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Gal 2

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3:9

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14:12

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col 2:12 KJV

Gill on Col 2:12
“......through the faith of the operation of God; that is, it is through faith that saints see themselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism is greatly assisting, where there is true faith; for otherwise, without faith, this ordinance will be of no use to any such end and purpose; and it is not any faith that will avail, but that which is of God's operation; faith is not naturally in men, all men have it not; and those that have it, have it not of themselves, it is the gift of God; it is what be works in them, and by his power performs.....”

You are horribly misunderstanding these guys. They are not stating the faith is a work (something done looking for reward).. note the very first thing they state and read the rest in context.

No, you misunderstand, as I pointed out with JFB.

On a side bar but an interesting point of interest - You do realize regarding the passage in question, according to the Greek it is actually stating - This is the work of God, that you [may keep on] believing.. - Not come to a belief but 'that you may keep on believing]. Note Reformed Greek Scholar A.T. Robtinson's statement on the Greek wording here:
It is just something I found interesting. ANYWAY...

OK, nothing new or shocking here, salvation is an ongoing affair, not a one time event. Regeneration i.e., the birth from above, on the other hand IS a one time event, and is one which man is totally passive in [Jn 1:13] just as he is with his physical birth.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1832301&postcount=45

See post #2 this thread.

Yet we are made righteous by faith according to Romans.

Yea:

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro 3:22

 

[kyredneck]

Abracadabra regeneration: follow the formula, repeat the incantation, and, SHAZAAM! PRESTO CHANGO! BORN AGAIN! IMMORTALITY ACHIEVED! ANYBODY CAN DO IT!

That about sums up what most hold to today.

 

[kyredneck]

Paul's contrast of faith vs works is in view of the intent to be justified by the works of the law.

James's connection of faith to works is in view of the law written on the heart from which both should come naturally.

17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith. Jas 2

And Paul did mention both the connection and the contrast of the two:

......the doers of the law shall be justified, for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law Ro 2:14

......by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Gal 2:16

Striving to earn favor and doing good deeds that come naturally are two totally different things.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

...Okay, look @ the sequence of this passage. Jesus came to His own, correct? Who were His own? The Jews, and they rejected Him. Now, those who did receive Him, He gave them the power to become the sons of God, even those who believed upon His name. They became the sons of God after they received Jesus, or better yet, believed Jesus was/is the Messiah prophesied for centuries. When one receives Christ they are then born again/born from above. One does not have life outside of Jesus Christ.

These individuals of v 12 that you say received Christ of their own free will are described in v 13 with a threefold denial of any participation on their part with being born of God.
Jn 1:12,13 sequence is exactly that given in Jn 3:21:

But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.

God has already wrought within those that come to Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

....Why could they not hear Jesus' word, or even understand? They were judicially(sp?) hardened because of their rebellion against God's commands. I gave you the Malachi references(in another thread a while back) and how they had profained His altar with polluted sacrifices. They had even made the office of the High Priest to where they were in for so long, and then "out you go". They had turned it into a political office, so-to-speak.

Is there something within the context of this passage that connects it to the Malachi passage? What I see Christ saying here is “you can't hear because you don't belong to me”.

Show me more about this 'judicial hardening'.

 

[kyredneck]

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Jn 10

.... Sheep is a hyperbole, and not literal sheep. Now, if you have to be sheared every so often, and you graze in the meadow, and go "baa", they maybe you are...:laugh:. Again, because of their continual rebellion, they were hardened. If they had known that Jesus was/is the prophesied Messiah, they would have not slain Him, thus, the OT prophecies would not have been fulfilled concerning Him.

Again Willis, Christ is saying, “you don't believe because you don't belong to me”.

 

[kyredneck]

12 But we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God; that we might know the things that were freely given to us of God.
14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. 1 Cor 2

.... How do you know you have passed from death unto life? Because you love the Brethern. The Grace of God is way too powerful to not know something about it when it shines in your life. I knew the very moment a mountain of sin was placed upon me, and I know when it was cast into the depths of the sea, and no longer is brought up before me by Him. .

Willis, this is no answer from you. The natural man (read unregenerate) considers the gospel as foolishness, he cannot receive Christ, he cannot know the things that are spiritually discerned because he has not been given the spirit which is from God. “It behoveth you to be born from above”. It is an absolute necessity.

 

[kyredneck]

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus` sake.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4

.... I just "cut and pasted" my last paragraph to answer this: How do you know you have passed from death unto life? Because you love the Brethern. The Grace of God is way too powerful to not know something about it when it shines in your life. I knew the very moment a mountain of sin was placed upon me, and I know when it was cast into the depths of the sea, and no longer is brought up before me by Him.

Yet another no answer from you Willis. God shines in the hearts of His own that they may have the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. “It behoveth you to be born from above”. It is an absolute necessity.

 

[kyredneck]

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.`

One must first be made alive, dead men can do nothing. Except they FIRST be born from above they cannot enter or even see the kingdom of God. That is a true and 'biblical' statement.

.... If dead men can do nothing, then they can't even rebel. Show me where a corpse can do anything. Spiritual death is seperation, and not a "flatlined" soul. When God saves someone, they are born from above. God is above all, and when He borns them anew, it comes down from above, therefore, we are born from above.

What's the matter Willis? You've certainly not been providing scripture for your 'no responses', just this rambling rhetoric.

Your Lord has made it very plain, "It behoveth you to be born from above". He has made it very plain that man is totally passive in this, “born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” I'd have trouble providing a scriptural refutation to those facts too, because there is none.

 

[Luke2427]

Faith plus nothing = salvation??? Total fiction.

God crediting our faith as righteousness = basis for election for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Matthew 13 teaches of three kinds of people who receive the gospel, but only one kind has their faith credited as righteousness. That was the one that went all in for Jesus.

Regeneration simply means being originated again, and that occurs after God spiritually puts us in Christ based on crediting our faith as righteousness. Calvinism claims regeneration occurs before a person is made alive together with Christ. Total Fiction.

This is further evidence that the vast majority of people who oppose the DoG are horribly uninformed about what they claim to oppose.

Most Calvinists believe man is "dead in his trespasses and sins" until made alive by grace so that he can believe and be saved.

There is none that seeks after God. God must do something to this man who is dead spiritually so that he even has an interest in knowing God.

Once God awakens the dead spirit of a man THEN he can seek after God and find him through faith.

 

[kyredneck]

Originally Posted by kyredneck
One must first be made alive, dead men can do nothing. Except they FIRST be born from above they cannot enter or even see the kingdom of God. That is a true and 'biblical' statement.

....Hearing and believing is what brings life, not life bringing hearing and believing.

It blows my mind. You still insist dead people can do things.

1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters...

Does a dead person thirst?

Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5:6

Fortunate indeed these are to have been made to feel their need for Him.

 

[psalms109:31]

To use a scripture totally wrong which the writer was never trying to convey is pretty bad.

No one is good exactly, Jesus came to save sinners which I am the worste. No one seeks God that is right, that is why Jesus called His disciple's to seek them and make disciple's out of them to contiue to seek those who do not seek Him.

Looking at Paul and at his life he knew no one seeked God so he spent his life seeking them. Anyone can talk a good Paul, but living a good Paul living to be everything for eveyone so you might save them.

1 Corinthians 9:
Paul’s Use of His Freedom
19 Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

 

[percho]

.........and the Paraliamint....:smilewinkgrin: by Clark W. Griswold

Round and round we go, you know what I mean.

 

[Winman]

This is further evidence that the vast majority of people who oppose the DoG are horribly uninformed about what they claim to oppose.

Most Calvinists believe man is "dead in his trespasses and sins" until made alive by grace so that he can believe and be saved.

There is none that seeks after God. God must do something to this man who is dead spiritually so that he even has an interest in knowing God.

Once God awakens the dead spirit of a man THEN he can seek after God and find him through faith.

Your statement that I have highlighted in red is where non-Cals and Arminians have a problem with Calvinism.

How can a person be alive before he believes? Until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot be both spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment.

Regeneration is instant, but faith is not. It takes time to hear, understand, and believe the gospel. In your view a man must be made spiritually alive before he is even willing to hear the gospel, and he must be made spiritually alive before he can understand or believe the gospel.

Even if it only took you two minutes to hear, understand, and believe the gospel, for those two minutes until you believe you are still in your trespasses and sins.

So, in the Calvinist view a man can be spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time! This is impossible and contradicts all scripture.

Calvinism presents an impossible contradiction. It claims a man is regenerated and made spiritually alive before he hears, understands, and believes the gospel. It claims a man is spiritually alive before his sins are forgiven. This is impossible.

All scripture says a man must first believe before he has spiritual life.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Scripture ALWAYS shows a person must first believe before having life. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture, Calvinism teaches that a person must have life to believe. This is total error and absolutely unscriptural.

 

[percho]

Next question from a different angle of approach, See post 98 which contained three questions that need an answer.

YLT Luke 23:46 {with comment from John 19:30 added in} and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, {it is finished} `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.

Jesus was dead.

Is this the same Spirit of Life that fertilized the egg within the virgin Mary that divided and divided and grew until she brought forth the man child Jesus? His Spirit returned to God and Jesus died.

How long was Jesus dead?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Why did Jesus have to go away before the Comforter could come to them? That is they could receive the Spirit.
What all had to take place before the Comforter could be given to them?

Four more questions.

Amy if you are reading you are getting behind and will never get off the merry go round.

 

[AresMan]

Your statement that I have highlighted in red is where non-Cals and Arminians have a problem with Calvinism.

How can a person be alive before he believes? Until you believe you are dead in your trespasses and sins. You cannot be both spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same moment.

Who says that regeneration and the beginning of faith cannot be simultaneous? The issue is which is the cause and which is the effect.

 

[percho]

Who says that regeneration and the beginning of faith cannot be simultaneous? The issue is which is the cause and which is the effect.

Cause and effect.



A. KJV Phil. 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

If Jesus the sinless Son of God had not done that in bold would there have been any regeneration?

B. KJV Gal. 3:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead)

If that in bold had not taken place, would there have been any grace?

KJV 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die. If (A) above had not taken place all men upon dying would be dead forever.
KJV 1 Cor. 12:22 even so in Christ shall all be made alive. If (B) above had not taken place there would not have been any, hope of eternal life to be an heir or joint heir with Christ of; See Titus 3:7 and Romans 8:17

For by grace through the faith ye are saved; not by works nor by your faith which would be a work.

Your salvation will be totally the gift of God the Father through Jesus Christ out Lord and His, the Father's Son.

2 Tim. 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

 

[psalms109:31]

Not all Calvinist believe in regeneration before faith, there is some who think it be ridiculous, life before the word of life is ridiculous. We all are different and can see the same things differently. We who are in Christ can't be deceived, because Christ will not deceive us.

We can't trust the natural man the carnal mind doth not understand Spiritual things.

This is why we cannot lean on our own understand but trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I pray every day that I or God do not harden my heart where He will not mold it by His word into who He wants me to be.