Is General Motors going bankrupt?

NOt the employees fault GM is failing. It is GM's fault that GM is failing! Went to the autoshow Last Friday (had the chance to go before it was open to the public) and it didn't take long to realize after looking at all the car displays,cars,and new cars coming out from the car companies to see why GM is in trouble. Theirs was the least interesting of all.
It is also the market. You can't compete with 3rd world countries for wages. Trust me your jobs are heading there too. Japan has national health care, the car companies don't have too foot that bill. Now what happens here in the old US of A it alot of envy. I don't have healthcare or the benefits of union workers so they must be evil! I am surprised at many christian brothers who instead of saying "great you have a good job and great benefits" its "no the union is evil and you make too much yada yada."

 

Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.

How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. [/QB][/QUOTE]

What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off!

 

Good point. We need to sever the relationship between health insurance and employment through either a one payer national system or through a private/government joint effort to fund individual health savings accounts.

 

The Corvette could help GM, not through direct sales, but through image. F1 racing costs about $4million/weekend to race (and that was several years ago), but the worldwide sales for the sponsor would increase by $1billion for a win. Although the Mercedes you buy off the showroom floor has very little in common with the F1 car, their sales would increase when they won.

So, if everyone wants a Vette, but can't afford it, they might buy an Impala or something.

 

Yea, let all those workers go on unemployment; let their families suffer, who cares!

How calloused!

No wonder liberals like me often despise positions taken by conservatives. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.

How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]This is just the type of bull I would expect from a hyper-conservative. What a crock!

 

I hold us all responsible - consumers and suppliers - unions and management - citizens and government - for the problems we're facing in many industries.

Unions are far from sinless. They were organized to provide for collective bargaining of wages and working conditions that could not be accomplished one on one. They helped make some very positive changes in our country that have benefited all of us. We should be thankful for that because, without them, we'd all be working a lot harder for a lot less. But, just as they've done good, they've also done bad. They pushed for ridiculous work rules to "protect" their jobs that ultimately hurt themselves. Anyone who's worked with it knows both sides of this.

Management is far for sinless. On the positive side the human desire to make money and provide capital for business investments has led to a lot of jobs for a lot of people. People with money provide those investments. We should be thankful for that! They don't want to pay one cent more - in wages, benefits, or anything else than they have to - just like most of when we go shopping. There have been some "compassionate" management over the years that truly treated their workers fairly. Today, I see far less of that and I see a very large and increasing gap between the executive compensation and the "worker's" compensation. It's not illegal but it sure doesn't seem right.

Companies, for the large part, are owned by individual investors who have voting power by their stock ownership. Want they want is maximum capital growth and solid returns. Given the choice they'll trade solid long term returns for maximum short term capital growth. That short term growth can be attained by drastic cuts in costs - labor, benefits, services, maintenance, etc. - that don't immediately wreck everything. Executives that makes these things happen are in high demand. Investors love them because it makes them rich. Greed is at work here. People don't care long term what happens.

Consumers are very fickle! They'll buy the lowest price highest quality product regardless of any perceived loyalty to their neighbors. Everyone is looking for the best deal. Foreign vehicles offered better price and better quality for a sufficient period of time to get a stronghold on the market. Don't count on that staying permanent because once they've got you the price goes up and the service goes down.

Manufacturers have increasingly focused on marketing the gloss and not the substance of products in America because that's want sells. Advertisement rarely focuses on the true attributes or merits of products but uses other attributes - status, sex, power, etc. - to sell the product. Why do we pay so much for style and flash of products? This appeals to people but it saps energy from building products that really are better and really have functionality.

Government burdens manufacturing with a host of tax rules - income, inventory, fees, etc. - and regulations that sap a tremendous amount of energy in business. Decisions about investments have to be made based on tax implications rather than true business decisions. Inventory has to be minimized so it's not taxed with leads to just in time manufacturing which means limited stock of product and replacement parts. Regulations, intended for good causes, are a huge burden imposed on America's own that importers don't necessarily have to contend with. The intents are often good but the implementation is often ridiculous and centers around paperwork verses reality of processes. Most capital investments in industry these days are for environmental projects.

A large portion of our productivity energies is absorbed by non-productive leeches. These leeches result in the high cost of liability insurance, the proliferation of regulations, and the decline of common sense. Fewer and fewer can afford to take reasonable risks to attain reasonable gains. Those that profit from this don't add any real value in goods or services. They just take a cut from the fruits of the labor of those who do. Just take a look at what businesses are the most profitable for the work they perform.

 

Ben, I think F1 would be a bad fit for GM at this time. But their biggest difficulty as I see it is design. Other than the Corvette, they have ugly cars, and I see beautiful cars coming from I think Taiwan, or Korea, that are a pleasure to look at. Just look at that horizontal simulated chrome strip across the back of the Impala, (I think)which is so ugly and contrast tht with the same thing form overseas that places the strip far lower, with great effect. GM needs help in design. And of course union reform.

 

It's called the quarterly report. Several Japanese car companies have plants in the U.S. Why can they do so well and the "US" car companies cannot? In the last century in about the 1950s the average president of a company made eight times the wage of the person lowest on the pay scale. Now it is about 500 time. Figure that out. One CEO being paid the same as 500 workers. Who is doing the work?

 

This is another example of the total depravity of man at every level. We are corrupted by greed and the love of money on a global scale.

The pervasiveness can be seen at every level from heads of state all the way down through union management. Are we going to blame the ones near the bottom?

We all need to take a good look in the mirror and do some serious introspection.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.

How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off! [/QB][/QUOTE]
What an informed, substance filled response.

Stupidest man alive? How kind and Christian of you... Why? Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth? Because I don't like seeing socialists dictate to property owners what they can and cannot do with their businesses?

Show my ignorance if you can. I know that unions did some good in their early years in particular on safe working conditions. OTOH, I know they have done incredible harm in the last 30-40 years and have very frequently been corrupt.

I KNOW that they prevented US businesses from possessing the flexibility and nimbleness that our foreign competitors have had... and that is a very large part of why heavy manufacturing has left the US. Light mfg could relocate within the states to places where they wouldn't have to deal with unions... and people actually appreciated the company for giving them an opportunity.

"Ignorance"? Feel free to show more of yours.

 

Yea, let all those workers go on unemployment; let their families suffer, who cares!

How calloused!

No wonder liberals like me often despise positions taken by conservatives. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.

How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]This is just the type of bull I would expect from a hyper-conservative. What a crock! </font>[/QUOTE]Another response filled with all the substance a liberal can muster on the subject.

 

Yes. The same unions who gave us high priced cars so that someone could sit all day and watch a robot place rivets. And yes, the same unions who have nearly chased heavy manufacturing out of the US by their unreasonable demands and extortion.

How calloused? Indeed. How callous of union workers to selfishly inflate the price of the things we pay for. How callous of unions to chase good jobs out of our country before our children get to hold them for the sake of their own new boat or fancy car. How callous of unions who for the sake of class envy have robbed their neighbor. </font>[/QUOTE]What a load of crap. 100% ignorance. YOu have all you life to be the stupidest man alive..........take aday off! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What an informed, substance filled response.

Stupidest man alive? How kind and Christian of you... Why? Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth? Because I don't like seeing socialists dictate to property owners what they can and cannot do with their businesses?

Show my ignorance if you can. I know that unions did some good in their early years in particular on safe working conditions. OTOH, I know they have done incredible harm in the last 30-40 years and have very frequently been corrupt.

I KNOW that they prevented US businesses from possessing the flexibility and nimbleness that our foreign competitors have had... and that is a very large part of why heavy manufacturing has left the US. Light mfg could relocate within the states to places where they wouldn't have to deal with unions... and people actually appreciated the company for giving them an opportunity.

"Ignorance"? Feel free to show more of yours. [/QB][/QUOTE]

TOO busy showing yours. Maybe you would like to elabrate on your inane statements and prove how unions have done anything but look for decent wages. What an idiot.

 

Speaking as a truck drive which takes loads into auto plants, you get in and out of non UAW plants faster and treated nicer than UAW plants. Now that Toyota Georgetown, Ky. is UAW they are not as fast or as nice as before.
I wouldn't guess what is the problem at GM, but i would say there is enough blame to go around. If management does as little as labor, they have mess on their hands, and the way labor talks management does not work at all and labor does all the work, they have a problem then.

 

Bob I have heard that before but it was because they came at breaktime. Company could fix that by rotating drivers, fork truck drivers, or paying overtime. Not employees fault. In this case anyways.

 

That is built on the false premise that a) there is a "right" to employment and b) that right somehow supercedes the legitimate property rights of a business owner if they business owner has not used dishonest means to force people to work for them.

When unions began, they were a response to what amounted to slavery. Companies used debt and housing to trap people in subsistance living. It was wrong and should have been addressed as a slavery issue.

But a person's desire to work at a particular company at for a particular compensation DOES NOT constitute having a right to do so. It is their "right" and God given liberty to go work elsewhere or start their own company.

There is no legitimate moral basis for forcing a company to pay more for an employee's service than it is worth. That is exactly what unions have very frequently done.

Very true.

How does that fit with the point you had just made? Would a company want to pay an exec more than they are worth... since in the exec's case, the company doesn't have to... they can fire him if he does a bad job without question.

I make a conscious choice to reward value first... and then fairness. When possible (which lately doesn't seem often), I avoid Chinese products. It is neither fair nor a good "value" choice to buy from a company that effectively uses slave labor.

That said, I have no intention of buying a GM vehicle. I have owned them and been burnt by lousy workmanship/design and poor customer service.

And US Unions have played a very large part in preventing US companies from offering the best deals on products of heavy manufacturing.

The problem there is that their prices for a while, and perhaps even now, were maintained artificially high through tariffs designed to protect the UAW and Big Four. IOW's, absent the Big 4 and the tariffs but continuing in competition with other foreign companies... there is actually forces that could drive car prices down.

Can you document that?

Absolutely. And you were very good on taxes and regulations as well.

Oddly, the same liberals that claim to be on the side of the working man support the very unions, regulations, and tax system that has progressively put these working men out of work... I guess that gives liberals one more opportunity to play the hero.

What a cruel system... create a problem while fooling the people into thinking you are helping them then fool the same people into thinking the problem was caused by "business greed" and come to the rescue.

The only thing I can disagree with you on is the concept and premises behind collective bargaining/strikes/etc. The 'best' way to ensure equitable compensation is employee mobility between jobs... and we have plenty of that now. Two car companies operating without a trust in the same city will find the "right" level for employee pay.

I happen to believe in American ingenuity and competitiveness... unions and to a large degree, "Big Business", stifle those genuine American values.

 

"Bless them that curse you"--it heaps coals on their heads.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

I HAVE elaborated. You are the one who has attacked me personally without even one iota of substance or reasoning.

"Decent wages"? I'll give you an example of something quite a bit "more" than "decent wages".

A unionized printing press operator in the Chicago area could before, and in fewer cases now, can earn close to $100K per year... but neither domestic nor foreign competition will allow such an overpayment to exist. An even more skilled, non-union operator at another company will do the job for the "decent wage" of $50K. Further, their counterpart in China or India will do the job for a small fraction of either.

Don't even try to convince me that a UAW worker who does the minimum he can get by with but demands $35/hr and full benefits is just looking for a "decent wage".

A "decent wage" is one that rewards someone for what they do... not for having a union capable of shutting a company down in violation of legitimate property rights and freedoms.

 

I have seen it before too... with non-union workers and it wasn't "break time". (What a lame excuse).

Some people are self-motivating and will do a good job on their own. But these are often discouraged by majorities who want to get the most money possible for the least amount of work. A job that can be done in 10 minutes can be made to fill an hour. Jobs that can be done by one... are done by 3.

The main difference is that unions often protect and even encourage this type of behavior as a means of protecting jobs and wages. Non-union companies that are well managed won't tolerate it. They will root out these bad attitudes and fire people if necessary.

Except that unions sometimes resist or impose such unreasonable changes in working conditions.

So its not the employee's fault when Bob specifically said that he got good service before the union and bad service afterwards? Somehow the company caused this? And you accuse me of making innane statements?

 

"Because I don't like to see people make 2 or 3 times what their job is actually worth?"

The job is actually worth what the employer will acutally pay. An economic exchange will not occur unless both parties think they are improving their position over the alternatives.

Alaskan Air Lines has saved money by firing union workers? &lt;G&gt;