Is General Motors going bankrupt?

BTW, unions, union workers, big corporations, et al are not now nor have they ever been the "backbone" of America.

The backbone now as always is the small and medium sized companies that provide the overwhelming majority of America's private sector jobs.

 

Unions circumvent that by preventing businesses to engage in legal, rightful activities if the company decides that doing business with the union will not improve their position over the alternatives.

I could even favor unions to a degree if a company could choose between 2 or 3 unions and union agreements. Unions prevent honest negotiations and operate monopolies/trusts that would be disallowed if the company attempted to do it.

I am not familiar with the situation. So I can't speak to it "intelligently".

 

Quote:
There is no legitimate moral basis for forcing a company to pay more for an employee's service than it is worth. That is exactly what unions have very frequently done.

So who are you too decide what they are worth. Compared too who. That’s not how the capitalist system works Scott. We get paid what the market can handle. Just like in every other business. I am sure you get upset that BB and football players get “overpaid” by your standard. Yet the market seems to support it. And players will get more and more till people quit buying their tickets and supporting them.
Now in the 29 years I have at GM we have gained and given back. 2 contracts ago we gave back 38000.00 per employee in benefits. Yes GM is hurting but why. And we took a dollar cut in pay and will do more to preserve our jobs. Now all GM has to do is make cars that people want too buy.
Another problem is that the American companies are paying health insurance. I wonder why you haven’t railed on them? Japan has a national health care so the companies have a big advantage there. Bottom line is we can’t compete with 3rd word countries. Neither can you or your job. When our jobs are gone many will lose their jobs and /or take a cut in pay. The unions have raised the standard of living in this country. Wish for GM to go bankrupt it will affect you.
There is no moral basis for not having unions. Who is gm’s boss? A bunch of shareholders who invest money to get more money in return. Now these people do no work, they are not producing anything. Just making money off of other people’s work.
Now no one wants to buy GM products why is that? Because of our wages or because they are not appealing to the public? People will buy what they want. Now union people who work in my plant just put the parts on as told. They have no say in the engineering or designing of the car or truck. How can you say they are too blame?
Your statements are so crazy I am not going to take the time to respond to all of them. I know that I am not dealing with a person who has the correct Christian attitude on this matter. It usually is one of envy. Not of being glad for another brother who has a good job but wishing him the worst.


Quote:
Would a company want to pay an exec more than they are worth... since in the exec's case, the company doesn't have to... they can fire him if he does a bad job without question. (End of Quote)

Well they pay the GM exec 2 or 3 times what they pay them in Japan. And guess what they are beating GM. So you get what you pay for is a fallacy a lot o the time. Roger Smith who lost about 12% of the GM market share got record bonus and a two million a year retirement!
Have you ever heard of an exec getting fired?!!! What does it amount too. Millions of dollars severance pay and another 50 million or so in stock options. Hello Scott. Welcome to the real world.

Quote:
The problem there is that their prices for a while, and perhaps even now, were maintained artificially high through tariffs designed to protect the UAW and Big Four. IOW's, absent the Big 4 and the tariffs but continuing in competition with other foreign companies... there is actually forces that could drive car prices down. (End of Quote)

I am going to stop after this because of the blatant ignorance being displayed here. It anger me too much that someone can ramble on without doing some research too make sure they know what they are talking about.

Japan and other countries have always had a higher tariff on our cars going overseas. Not only that but government does help subsidies car makers in their country. As I have said before it is not a level playing field.
Back in the 70’s the big three cried unfair practice (which it was) and Toyota plus one or two of the other foreign car companies said they would willfully limit their imports. During that time GM and the big three raise the price of their cars higher then at any other time in history. That was not a union decision!

And last but not least just because liberals seem to have a bigger heart does not make the wrong all the time. They understand people should have decent wages and treatment on the job. I am not a liberal, have voted republican everytime, but we are talking about facts here not politics. The union is not without its sins but with a company like GM it is necessary.

 

billwald,

 

I HAVE elaborated. You are the one who has attacked me personally without even one iota of substance or reasoning.

"Decent wages"? I'll give you an example of something quite a bit "more" than "decent wages".

A unionized printing press operator in the Chicago area could before, and in fewer cases now, can earn close to $100K per year... but neither domestic nor foreign competition will allow such an overpayment to exist. An even more skilled, non-union operator at another company will do the job for the "decent wage" of $50K. Further, their counterpart in China or India will do the job for a small fraction of either.

Don't even try to convince me that a UAW worker who does the minimum he can get by with but demands $35/hr and full benefits is just looking for a "decent wage".

A "decent wage" is one that rewards someone for what they do... not for having a union capable of shutting a company down in violation of legitimate property rights and freedoms. </font>[/QUOTE]And what happens when someone who has an advantage bids with a lower price. Well they meet it or lose busness.
YOu are so stupid that you can't figure out that there is someone who will do you job for pennies a day! I am saying quit being so envious and happy that people will lose thier jobs and companies will go bankrupt.
Your really not much of thinker.

 

billwald,

An economic exchange will not occur unless both parties think they are improving their position over the alternatives.

It obviously turned out to be uneconomical. The market is what ultimately determines this.

 

This JIT freight, you can't get there over 15 minutes early or late, the appointment is made when you pick up the load. I've had 0600, 0700, 0800 and so on appointments. If you are with in 3 hours of the end of a shift, that shift is going to put you off to the next shift most of the time. However at non UAW plants if you have an appointment at blank time, you are going to be out of there in 30 to 45 minutes. This is trailer load freight plant tells me when to be there and I have to pay if I'm late( rates cut for being late). I know if I could pick what plants I'm going to it would always be a non UAW plants, because when wheels aren't rolling, I don't earn any income.

 

I have seen it before too... with non-union workers and it wasn't "break time". (What a lame excuse).

Some people are self-motivating and will do a good job on their own. But these are often discouraged by majorities who want to get the most money possible for the least amount of work. A job that can be done in 10 minutes can be made to fill an hour. Jobs that can be done by one... are done by 3.

The main difference is that unions often protect and even encourage this type of behavior as a means of protecting jobs and wages. Non-union companies that are well managed won't tolerate it. They will root out these bad attitudes and fire people if necessary.

Except that unions sometimes resist or impose such unreasonable changes in working conditions.

So its not the employee's fault when Bob specifically said that he got good service before the union and bad service afterwards? Somehow the company caused this? And you accuse me of making innane statements? </font>[/QUOTE]It is stupid, I have dealt with it here at GM in Pontiac. The company says let them wait. Why don't ask me why this is so instead of making assumptions that are wrong and spiteful towards other.
You have a unfounded hate and the ignorance to go with with!

 

Well I am not going to argue that with you. Not sure how you can justify that but it the big three go down you realize that a lot of small businesses will go too! Many of the small businesses right around the shop will close. That is a fact.

 

Except that unions sometimes resist or impose such unreasonable changes in working conditions.

So its not the employee's fault when Bob specifically said that he got good service before the union and bad service afterwards? Somehow the company caused this? And you accuse me of making innane statements? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I have tried to get the company to let the drivers rotate and they replied let'em wait. That is just too help the few. I have had drivers say that when they ocme to this plant they unload faster as long as they come at the right time. The reasoning be that we have a "just in time system" that requires the drivers get the parts and get them too the line. I am not saying that Bob does not have that experience but it may not be the rule because one man says so.
Try to listen Scott or ask if you don't know. Again you assume to know it all but you are far from correct. Hey I like Rush Limbaugh too but I don't always agree with him! Ever hear his thoughts on smoking...don't hurt anyone he says. And should be able to smoke anywhere they want. he's not always right. Have too think for yourselve sometimes Scott.

 

Bingo!

 

More "Japanese" cars are built here than in Japan. In fact, the top three selling cars in Japan are imports from the US. Yet, they still build better cars despite the fact they have to deal with the US healtcare system, US wages, etc. How many of them are union?

BTW, Japan is not a "third world country". It is far from a developing nation. Why can we not compete with them? Why are they capable of building a superior product even when it is built here?

 

More "Japanese" cars are built here than in Japan. In fact, the top three selling cars in Japan are imports from the US. Yet, they still build better cars despite the fact they have to deal with the US healtcare system, US wages, etc. How many of them are union?

BTW, Japan is not a "third world country". It is far from a developing nation. Why can we not compete with them? Why are they capable of building a superior product even when it is built here? </font>[/QUOTE]Good questions. First let me start out by saying that in 1976 When I first hired in there were over 375,000 employees. Now we have about 125,000. These people are retiring. How long has Toyota been in the country 10/15 years. How many retires are they paying for right now? I would say about none, eh? See what I am saying. There is a cost advantage there.
The next question is a great one.. why can't the big three compete when other companies from overseas can. Well for one they ARE building superior cars in some instance. Why is that? I again challenge anyone who knows or works at an auto plant to explian how that puts the blame on the employees. Design and egineering are solely and ocmpletely management. We are told where to stand, what parts and how to put them on. MOst people I work with have no problem with that. If the part fits they do their job. A majority of the people still have a decent work ethic and do their jobs!

Listen Hope of Glory do you understand that if you have a job there is someone who will do it cheaper. And if that person lives in some country that pays 1 dollar a day and can live on that then you are overpaid? Now would you be willing to take a dollar a day to compete? You'd be living in the streets and starving with that kind of pay. Where does it stop? When every9one is poor except the few.
And it really is not a republic/democrat thing because a lot of the blame could be laid at the greed of CEO's Overcooking the books, bankrupting the company and walking off with millions of dollars while thousands loose thier pensions. Guess what, most of them are conservative republicans. Capitalism is great till the greed factor completely takes over.

I would suggest you do a search and read up on how government aids and pays for companies. I would also like to know what three cars are top sellers in Japan and how much import tax they put on them. If you have a link I would be happy to read it. Will search myself also.

 

I would think that they would provide 401K's in most instances, so as not to create a top-heavy burden on the company that can never be paid.

As a private business owner, that's what I do, and I also work part time, and I put that into a 401K. (Adds a whole new dimension to being bi-vocational, when I work two jobs in addition to preaching, eh?)

GM has been notorious for cutting corners and cutting quality to meet the price demands of the unions, as well as the bonuses paid to upper management.

We own a GM vehicle that is literally falling apart with only 125,000 miles on it, yet I have a Toyota that has been mistreated and abused and it's still going strong at 319,000 miles. (But, it will need a new clutch soon.)

You better believe that I understand it. Chinese prison labor stuff that I compete with costs less than I can buy supplies for. So, I have to provide something that is worth spending the money on: Quality.

I stay busy because my quality outshines the competition.

However, your argument about the $1 per day doesn't hold water in the car industry. In other industries it does. In many industries, though, the union demands have made the option of paying for shipping in conjunction with lower wages very appealing.

Their top three sellers are Honda, Nissan, and Toyota, built here in the US, then shipped to Japan. They build more here than there, although their best ones are still built there.

 

Right back at you... it isn't me that called you stupid or idiot without good reason.

I have given my reasons for believing that unions are generally bad for both business and ultimately the employees themselves. They very frequently protect subpar performers and restrict businesses from making timely, necessary decisions and investments.

Rather than calling me an "idiot", you might want to take a survey of the companies and industries in America that are surviving... it isn't the one's with big, powerful unions. Those industries and companies are being lost, ie. the steel industry.

I don't assume that I know it all... but I believe I know enough to make a general assessment. I have worked in industry for more than 20 years, am interested in these issues and their history, and am a dedicated observer of what works in business and what doesn't.

I don't really "like" Rush very much- though I often appreciate the fact that his expressed views agree with mine .

Sounds similar to your contention that unions don't hurt but rather help our country, businesses, and working people.

I hope you are kidding. You are chastising me for not thinking for myself? Where exactly did you pick up your pro-union dogma?

I have seen unions and their effects on a country and people that I genuinely love while somehow getting their members to believe in lies.

Unions don't help employees by putting companies out of business or making it more economically sound to move plants out of the US... That's just one example of "thinking" for myself.

 

Well I am not going to argue that with you. Not sure how you can justify that but it the big three go down you realize that a lot of small businesses will go too! Many of the small businesses right around the shop will close. That is a fact. </font>[/QUOTE]America is quite a bit bigger than Michigan...

Fact is if one of the big three goes down then maybe the UAW will get a grip and realize that their existence depends on making the other two successful companies. Maybe they will realize that the pot of gold has a bottom and that workers can't make $25/hr with full paid benefits for semi-skilled jobs. Maybe they will realize that cost cutting is a reality and that companies can't guarantee 40 hour weeks when product demand can't justify it.

 

Or unions execs that have raped pension and benefit plans...

Not true.

Most small and medium size business owners and leaders are Republicans. Most of the executives in major corporations are Democrats or Democrat leaning. It is in their best interest to centralize power in DC to maximize their control/influence of gov't. They even like much of the regulation that gov't passes (with their input of course) since regulation provides entry barriers to smaller companies that might bring real market forces to bear.

Big gov't, big labor, and big business are all in bed together... we'd be better off without any of them.

 

Bingo! </font>[/QUOTE]Not when organized labor forces a business to "buy" from a single monopoly.

 

I would think that they would provide 401K's in most instances, so as not to create a top-heavy burden on the company that can never be paid.

As a private business owner, that's what I do, and I also work part time, and I put that into a 401K. (Adds a whole new dimension to being bi-vocational, when I work two jobs in addition to preaching, eh?)

GM has been notorious for cutting corners and cutting quality to meet the price demands of the unions, as well as the bonuses paid to upper management.

We own a GM vehicle that is literally falling apart with only 125,000 miles on it, yet I have a Toyota that has been mistreated and abused and it's still going strong at 319,000 miles. (But, it will need a new clutch soon.)

You better believe that I understand it. Chinese prison labor stuff that I compete with costs less than I can buy supplies for. So, I have to provide something that is worth spending the money on: Quality.

I stay busy because my quality outshines the competition.

However, your argument about the $1 per day doesn't hold water in the car industry. In other industries it does. In many industries, though, the union demands have made the option of paying for shipping in conjunction with lower wages very appealing.

Their top three sellers are Honda, Nissan, and Toyota, built here in the US, then shipped to Japan. They build more here than there, although their best ones are still built there. </font>[/QUOTE]I and a good friend of mine have bought Bonnevilles and have drove them into the ground. First by us and then by our teenagers. Over 200,000 miles on 2 o f them and one had over 250000 before we gave them away. NOt one bit of problem. Just changed the oil. I have own two celica's and one supra. Was not any advantage that I could see.

Next pt. ....what you are saying is that because you have a product that the chinese can make cheaper you are opting for qaulity. And that works for you but no one else could make that work. Say if GM decided to go with qaulity they could beat the other companies? I agree with that. AGain if you think that workers design or engineer the cars then I guess we are at a stand still with ignorance being your wall. It is GM that picks, designs and engineers the cars.

Now on your last pt are you saying that american workers are not as good a workers as the Japanese? YHOu say they build them better over in Japan then they do here. Sounds like you are trashing all workers. Toyota here does not have a union.

REally you have proved nothing. YOu claim that union has force GM into bankruptcy when in fact poor management has. GM will be around for alot longer and we will most likely have to take a pay cut as we have done many times before.
You and SCott need to show it is the unions fault. so far that has not been done. I agree our wages are higher then other countries. So are yours but you claim that quality helps you win out. I am telling both of you that the union does not run the company. They make the decisions. Do you all have any idea how much money was made in the 90's under clinton (not because of him)? They made money had over fist and yet the first year the econemey had a downturn they came to the union claiming hard times! And yes your product that you make does fall under the same threat. Someone will make it alot cheaper and better qaulity.
Oh yeah and I guess that pt the GM is paying for hundreds of thousands of retired employees pension and health care. Also a big plus for the economey. Toyota is just collecting investments off of their pension fund and paying no health care cost for retires.
I shake my head in amazement at the hard headedness of some people. We get paid great, the economeny has allowed it. WE were the biggest car company in the world. As GM prospered so did we. That makes alot of people angry. It is not very becoming of a christian though.

 

Scott:
They very frequently protect subpar performers and restrict businesses from making timely, necessary decisions and investments.
See this is what I am talking about. How can even someone who is uniformed say such stupid things! I work for GM; I was a union rep at one time. Where are you getting this? Don’t you think we realize that if GM is not successful then neither are we! I mean I have been involved and know that we do not want to hurt the hand the feeds us. So please tell me what inside information you have that says the union has restricted any decision. Which I tell you you can’t! GM has so much red tape(plus more management then overseas counterparts) that it takes them months longer to change then our competitors. And the union is not involved in any of those steps. It is all management. About investments, we have gone years without bonus while GM has bought into other car companies, Hugh’s Aircraft and other businesses. When they do we get no profit sharing. Yet when they sell them we get none also. I can’t remember what car company in China that they invested in and paid billions to get out of just recently! I don’t think you even have a clue about unions. They don’t tell GM what to do. GM does what it wants and we grieve it. It doesn’t stop them. GM also has treated their suppliers so bad that a lot of them will not deal with GM any longer. They demand they cut their cost by 6% while raising the cost of cars and trucks by 6%. And if vendors have invested a lot of money already in equipment and tools to manufacture for GM they are stuck. This is the scruples of the company that you are trying to make look like a victim.

Scott:
I don't assume that I know it all... but I believe I know enough to make a general assessment. I have worked in industry for more than 20 years, am interested in these issues and their history, and am a dedicated observer of what works in business and what doesn't.
Let me suggest that you don’t know enough then to make those “general” assessments because they are not correct. Your facts are not leading you too the truth.

Scott:
I don't really "like" Rush very much- though I often appreciate the fact that his expressed views agree with mine .
Ditto! But he is a godless man and is far from biblical.

Scott:
Sounds similar to your contention that unions don't hurt but rather help our country, businesses, and working people. Sounds similar to your contention that unions don't hurt but rather help our country, businesses, and working people.

Not really, not if you THINK about it. I can walk you through the streets of Pontiac, MI and Flint, and no doubt other cities where GM has pulled up and moved to other cities showing you hundreds of small businesses now out of business because GM is no longer there. Actually these are two cities that have been left barren by the fact the auto companies left. So I can prove my pt can you prove the second hand smoke is not harmful? Maybe,…. I am being too insulting and you dander is up that you can't think straight. but take a deep breath and set back and think about it. Not real heavy reasoning, just common sense.

Scott:
I hope you are kidding. You are chastising me for not thinking for myself? Where exactly did you pick up your pro-union dogma? I hope you are kidding. You are chastising me for not thinking for myself? Where exactly did you pick up your pro-union dogma?

I have seen unions and their effects on a country and people that I genuinely love while somehow getting their members to believe in lies.

Unions don't help employees by putting companies out of business or making it more economically sound to move plants out of the US... That's just one example of "thinking" for myself.

No Scott I am actually asking you to think. I use to think like till I became educated in how the union and company work.

I have no doubt you have loved ones in the union. I would suggest that they are not the ones deceived but you. We are discussing right now how your assumptions are incorrect. Yes unions have their faults but not the cause of GM going under. That’s what I am asking you too prove. You can say I think but if your thinking is refuted then you ought to change the way you think. Unless the flesh gets involved and envy kicks in.

Again how do unions put companies out of business. Right now the northwest wants their people to take a 40% cut in pay. They are flying people in from other countries to take their place…….because they can always find someone else too work cheaper. Don’t you understand that!
Thinking for yourself is not getting you anywhere maybe I should back off that idea. See they are moving plants out of the country because the can pay Mexicans 6 dollars a day to build them. Hey and guess what Scott your trucks and cars from there……..STILL COST 40,000. Look at the avalanche. Are you catching on yet?!!!

Scott:
America is quite a bit bigger than Michigan...

And here we have your bias shining through again. Most economists will tell you that if all three shut down it will have a major impact on America. And Scott if you 25.00 dollar and hour jobs leave your pay will drop too. Everyone’s will. If we go down to 14 an hour everyone else almost will drop. The market has been good and has allowed us to have these benefits. Just as the any other product in the free market. If you listen to Rush he tells you all the time that its whatever the market can bare. Now we have taken cuts and most likely will do it again. We like our jobs who are not trying to see if we can loose our jobs by running GM out of business. Can you not see the logic in that. Yes we have great jobs and benefits but don’t covet us for that. Be content where you’re at. I know that God has given me this job and it is Him who has placed me here.
And yes there are lazy people in the shop and there are lazy people in management. And they don’t just fire management they are found a place at all cost unless they are just completely worthless. But you will find fewer fired management positions then you will hourly union workers.

Scott:
Or unions execs that have raped pension and benefit plans...


Now I try to explain to you how things really are then you put the stupid sign on and say this. NOW…….HOW IN GOD”S GREEN EARTH have union execs raped pension and benefit plans. They have not control or access to these. I want an answer for such a statement. If you answer nothing else then answer this!

Scott:

Most small and medium size business owners and leaders are Republicans. Most of the executives in major corporations are Democrats or Democrat leaning.

Like Bush and Chainy. If they are not republicans in bed with government then your whole statement about is the biggest fallacy you have posted yet!

Scott:
Not when organized labor forces a business to "buy" from a single monopoly.

That was the case a long time ago when times where good. Not any more. GM buys from whoever they want and usually ruins them or drives them off because of their big demands. And that was to help raise the level of American living by buying from union shops. Then they also enjoy a higher standard of living. Don’t begrudge people for wanting to have a higher standard of living. Or the union for wanting others to share in our good fortune!

[ January 23, 2006, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Timtoolman ]