Is General Motors going bankrupt?

I hope that you expect to compete with them... it really doesn't matter what anyone else expects.

I am not suggesting that. I am suggesting that when a floor sweep at GM makes more than a plant manager in the not so cheap Seattle area... then it is very likely that floor sweep is overpaid. I am suggesting that even now those assembly workers you describe receive a total compensation equal to or more than mine... someone with a good career record in mgt of over 20 years. I am suggesting that the market HAS NOT determined those wages and because of that... heavy industry is leaving the US.

Let me sum it up for you also. Yes those things are part of the problem. No those things are not independent or else exclusive of union costs or high labor costs.

I wish I could give my magic formula to GM and the UAW. I think it would work but it would definitely require both of those leopards to change their spots.

It would start with a commitment to modernize US facilities rather than moving them overseas... that would require the union to accept some economical labor cuts... ones that don't require the company to pay huge severance costs.

That is still too much... and definitely too much at the others. Out here in the real world people with just as much skill and effort as you all don't earn $6K in 2 or 3 months and get no bonus. $48K far exceeds the annual salary of the average print industry supervisor. Most of the time these guys are promoted tradesmen with 20+ years of very technical experience.

I don't really see these "sacrifices" as very sacrificial. Good grief! A bonus of $48K probably pushes these people well over $100K... more than 3 times the median US salary.

News flash... employees aren't CEO's and this class envy thing is sinking your boat. Their salaries are market dependent, they do make decisions that either build or sink a company... I think their salaries are out of line... but that isn't the basis for comparison of GM pension plans.

$2800 a month? You need to get out in the real world. Most people would consider that a pretty good retirement especially if benefits are provided.

Yes it is. You all think because someone else is compensated well that you should get yours to and that somehow its all supposed to work out and everyone else is supposed to be sympathetic when those costs start putting your company out of business.

If you can make it work, go for it. But don't expect the rest of us to think GM should be bailed out when this kind of greed permeates both the union workers and management.

 

"Not when organized labor forces a business to "buy" from a single monopoly.

True until the companies learned to "outsource" the product.

 

American cars are cheaper. Also built on the cheap.

GM is making money financing cars and selling insurance.

 

Yes. But can we all agree that this isn't a desirable outcome? It is an obvious outcome when one group of people demands $30/hr for work others are willing to do... mayber not as well but do... for $6/hr.

 

$2800 a month? You need to get out in the real world. Most people would consider that a pretty good retirement especially if benefits are provided.

Wow! That's more than the average American makes working, let alone retire with it!

 

True...but does the employee have to contribute anything to get that kind of pension? I know my state government pension looks nice like that, but I contributed 6% of every paycheck into the retirement system...I was wondering if the union workers also had to contribute part of their salary.

 

An assembly line operator making over $100K per year... can probably afford it.

Tim can correct me but his posts seem to indicate that the company funds their pension program. My company still has a pension program (we are a private family business). It is fully funded by the company but we also have a 401K program.

 

My state government pension is funded by employees contributing 6%; the state contributing 2%; and the rest being made on investments. 401(k)s are optional and fully funded by employees' contributions...no matching funds from the state.

 

When I worked at the hospital the RNs, nurses, refused to honor strikes because "they are professional". When they went on strike they wanted union members to honor their strike. The unions did not, the hospital hired temporary nurses from another area.

The nurses came back after accepting less than they were offered originally.

 

Here it is again...........I don't get it so why should you. Know, what I would like to make 5 million a year for playing basketball Or have a job like Scott where I walk around and tell people how they can work harder.
People people get over yourselves!!!

 

Construction unions have a requirement that a contractor hire union members.

The Engineers did not have the requirement, so the employer could hire anyone, if he believed what the person told him. It is the employers responsibilty to followup on an application and resume. If a nonmember is hired that person must join the union within 30 days. They can and should further their training and education, as long time members have done and do, after securing a job and joining the union


More often than not the new hire was not qualified.
Hiring a union member ensures the employer they are getting someone with the education and training to qualify for the job

 

Know what Scott lets just call it quits and agree to disagree. We are not getting anywhere and it is doing nether of us any good. I say Unions are not without fault but not the major cause of GM's failures. I think that I have argued that well enough and if you don't think so that is fine. I apologize for unchristlike remarks made in frustration.
We know that being rich does dwell solely on material things but God's grace and mercy. God Bless you and yours in this life.
Tim

 

Here it is again...........I don't get it so why should you. Know, what I would like to make 5 million a year for playing basketball Or have a job like Scott where I walk around and tell people how they can work harder.
People people get over yourselves!!! </font>[/QUOTE]Let me assure you of something Tim. I have supervised and managed in non-union shops and I have done most of the jobs people did under me. Being a supervisor/manager was by far more mentally and emotionally (and most of the time physically) demanding than any of the direct labor jobs.

Run a machine all day? I've done it. Load pallets all day? I've done it. Supervise 50 people all day? I've done it... and supervision is by far the most difficult.

BTW, I would much rather have someone be more efficient or approach their job more intelligently than to "work harder". People unwilling to put reasonable effort into the job shouldn't stay around... they fire themselves. I'll do everything I can to salvage them.

 

I agree with you there. GM has their foremans and supervisors loaded with so much paper work and junk that it keeps them from running their departments.
When we ran the new models last time I was asked too be a line engineer too. So I think I have an idea what you do. I had to take classes for two weeks. But class is no subsitute for real experience. I have worked at GM when we had to do physical work. We use to put the frames together. Picke them up and use large rivet guns to put them together. Today everything is ergonomically design. Not much lifting or bending. Just busy. the days of people sitting sround here at GM Pontiac east have been gone for 15 years at least. there were a lot of jobs yuu could get done early if you worked hard but now they have everyone tied to the line (except skilled trades, thats another story!)and cycle very tight. However I would much rather work the line then supervise also. Come in everyday, do your job and go home. Foremans are told to stay over (doing paperwork that no one every reads)with no extra pay, and many take their jobs home with them.
The bad thing at GM is that they get their foremans from the line. Usually ends up with someone with an attitude over his new power. LOL the worst foremans are the ones who were duds on the line.
I now work as a health and safety instructor. I got that job after doing my time as a committee person. Let me tell you.....I would take 10 years being a foreman over 1 year being a committee person. I was elected because as a mechanic (I believe anyways) on the chasey line when I had free time, there was no repair. I would do bathroom breaks and stock jobs on the line for people. Most mec say "Its not my job to babysit these people." It works against them because the people get an attitude and send more repair. People actually tried not to bother me or send repair. When I ran for committee person I was ask by a group of people and I said why not. I had 280 people in my district and beat both another (lady) person, plus the old committee person who had the job for the last 12 years (elections every 3). People I thought were friends accused me of taking money from the company, being a trator and names I won't put into print. And the problem was GM was breaking the contract at will. They didn't care and our plant has become very hostile. As I said before if the supervisor could prove he had to break some part of the contract to maintian product, or quality then I would not write a grience. However that was less then 10 percent of the time. I wrote thousands of grievences over my 3 year term.
Now you may not like this but if a foreman was a hard worker, and half way intelligent, then he could get his people in line. However most of them are lazy or overworked and don't want to take teh time or effort it takes to discipline someone. And skilled trades....those guys do nothing, and the foremans let them becasue they don't want to make them mad. So I still blame the foremans. If a guy is sleeping and there is repair too do in the plant (and this is how it is at our plant) then he should walk over and wake him and write him up. I tell you the union can grieve it but it will do no good and when contract time comes that greivence will not appear anyway.
Enough rambleing. I could go on for ever.

 

One other thing Scott is the plant I work at had a christian who use to be in charge of hiring. I attended Midwestern Baptist College here in Pontiac and every student who wanted a job there could get one. Plus in 1976 you could pick a job. but there are many christians who work here.

 

Not so. Hiring a union member ensures the employer they are hiring a union member. That's all.

 

With $6B of equity left after the $4.8B loss reported for 4Q, there will be no equity left in another quarter or two.

GM cannot avoid bankruptcy.

 

I don't think that's true e-l... but they are going to have to do something radical.

For one, it may be necessary to break the company up and reduce the parallel product offerings. For instance, there has to be some costs associated with maintaining a GM and Chevy truck line. While I know there is some sentimentalism involved, most consumers wouldn't balk at GM trucks only.

The same is somewhat true of the car lines.

GM needs to do things right away. One is streamline their product offerings. The second is follow Ford's lead with PR.

If I were king for a day, one thing I would do is go on the airwaves and zig as others zag. I would say that GM is now committed to rebuilding the domestic car industry by retooling closed plants or building new plants with the latest innovations and automation and staffing them with American workers.

Tim described a situation that seemed to boil down to one basic issue- communication. We live in a day when staff positions can easily be reduced with improved communications technology and systems.

There is a nervousness in the public right now that none of these companies have tapped into.

Maybe someone at GM is already doing this... but it would be where I would start.

And as much as I hate it for Tim, a private demand of the union would have to be something on the order of a 40%-50% labor cost reduction. It would require automation, head count reduction, and possibly significant compensation cuts/freezes.

Tim, Maybe you can tell me. How does a company the size of GM do health care? It would seem that they could provide their own clinics with a good selection of quality doctors at a fraction of the price of an insurance scheme.

The company that probably claims the right to be the world's greatest printing company (quality/profitability/innovation/etc) has a free clinic and dentist in-plant and are fully self-insured. By this, they have reduced health related costs and absenteeism while improving employee retention.

A few years ago, I worked for a company that calculated the cost of losing a packager. It amounted double the wages over the first year due to recruitment, training, and inefficiencies. I suspect it is that or more now.

 

Right now GM is sitting on 15 billing cash reserve. Don't know where you got you figures but GM had to open thier books and I recieved this from a reliable source. HOwever that is not a large sum of money. Would only pay bonuses for mgt. for about a year.

 

Cash is NOT the same thing as equity. Equity is what's left after all liabilities. I can have thousands of dollars in cash, but if it's borrowed, it's not equity.

These figures come from GM's earnings release this morning, and are not a trade secret.