For the Calvinist...
regeneration is causal to the faith....
Election based SOELY upon Will/Plan?purposes of God
For Arminian...
faith directly causal to both regeneration and Election!
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Is God Able To regenerate sinners before their faith in Christ?
- Thread starter JesusFan
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For the Calvinist...
regeneration is causal to the faith....
Election based SOELY upon Will/Plan?purposes of God
For Arminian...
faith directly causal to both regeneration and Election!
psalms109:31
Active Member
"you'll never be able to continue to the end; you have not the joy of His children; you have such a wavering hold on Jesus.” All these are thoughts about self, and we will never find comfort or assurance by looking within."
It is a real shame when men try to look within them or believe they are ready have what they need to be save. We must look at the Holy Spirit and turn to Him when He is reaching out to us through the words of Jesus. Our salvation is not within ourself but in Jesus.
We are born again by His word not by anything we have within turn to Jesus and remain in Him our salvation.
Regeneration before faith, save the saved, that is ridiculous
It is a real shame when men try to look within them or believe they are ready have what they need to be save. We must look at the Holy Spirit and turn to Him when He is reaching out to us through the words of Jesus. Our salvation is not within ourself but in Jesus.
We are born again by His word not by anything we have within turn to Jesus and remain in Him our salvation.
Regeneration before faith, save the saved, that is ridiculous
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I can agree with much of this. Certainly there is a nonsense in supposing that either a man is unregenerate and therefore unable to receive the Gospel or regenerate and therefore not needing to hear the Gospel.
However, there is no getting around verses like Matt 11:27; John 3:3; 6:44; Eph 2:1; 1Cor 2:14 and many others which make it very clear that people don't come to Christ unless God first does a work upon their hearts.
We therefore need to reconcile verses like those above with ones like mark 5:36 and Rev 22:17, and the way to do this is not to suppose that regeneration is an instantaneous thing, but instead that it is elongated. Jer 31:3 and John 6:44 speak of the Lord 'drawing' His elect to Himself, and this, I believe, is the way most people come to Christ. First there is an interest in religious matters, then a conviction of sin and only after that a coming to repentance and faith in Christ. It is a fact that most of those who make an instant response at a Billy Graham crusade, fall away very quickly. It is those who proceed slowly, reading their Bibles, attending Bible studies and listening to Gospel sermons who come to true and lasting faith.
Those who have read John Bunyan's autobiography, Grace abounding to the Chirf of Sinners will know that he spent 18 months or more in the grip of anxiety and coviction of sin before he came to faith. It doesn't always take that long; sometimes only a very short time. Also, people who experience conviction do not always come to faith: Felix 'trembled,' Agrippa was almost persuaded, but neither was converted.
My understanding of regeneration goes like this:-
God's Foreknowledge
Predestination
Effectual Calling___________________________________
Awakening
Conviction REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)
Repentance & Faith
Justification_______________________________________
Sealing
Adoption
Sanctification
Glorification
With this understanding of regeneration, a preacher can preach the Gospel trusting that some in his congregation will be those whom the Holy Spirit has awakened to the things of God, so that the gospel sermon, by His grace, can bring them to conviction, repentance and faith.
This 'elongated' view of regeneration was held by many of the Puritans. You can find it in The Golden Chaine by William Perkins or, more recently, in Physicians of Souls by Peter Masters, the current minister at Spurgeon's Metropolitan tabernacle (Wakeman Books: ISBN 1-870855-34-5). The view only really became unfashionable after John Murray wrote Redemption: Accomplished and Applied. This otherwise excellent book places regeneration as an instantaneous event right at the front of the salvation process, which has had IMHO unfortunate effects for Gospel preaching.
Steve
Aren't regeneration/faith flip sides of the same coin?
In that unless God opens up a sinners heart/mind to receive Jesus, doesn't grant the faith to believe , cannot get saved...
But once Grace applied towards the sinner chosen by God to be saved, than almost at same time, part of same process, they will place faith in jesus and get saved?
Appears that to one to whom God has chosen to elect unto Life in Christ, can hear the good news and still stay oblivious to it, but will be a definiite point in time when God deterned Grace meets me, and will complete the "salvation process!"
You cannot be born again, having spiritual life before faith. It is impossible. Until you believe on Jesus you are a condemned sinner spiritually dead in your trespasses and sins. There is not one verse in all of scripture that supports being spiritually alive before faith. There are dozens of verses that say you must believe to have life.
psalms109:31
Active Member
The only one who is worthy for salvation is Jesus I wasn't chosen apart from Jesus, but in Jesus.
I do believe no one will come unless the Father draws them. There is nothing in me good, nothing. So the only one is good is Jesus, so I can't trust my carnal mind and say there is, so it is something outside of me and that person is Jesus. The only one's who will come is those who listen and learn, not from what is in side us, but Jesus. The one's who are wise in their own eyes trust in their own understanding can't come, because God has hidden the truth from them. The Father isn't going to draw them and they will not come.
So they will not come and the Father will not reveal the truth to them even to this day, only when they turn away from their own understand and turn to Jesus Anyone who turns to Jesus the veil will be taken away.
I do believe in the elect of God out of Israel, God said He will keep the meek and humble who will trust in the Lord they are the elect and through their message God gave them through Jesus, God will included with them those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Those who God hasn't hidden the truth from those who depend on their own understanding. Jesus word is Spirit and life, so it isn't inside you, but in Christ Jesus and His words are not His own, but the Father who sent Him
These are people who do not trust in themselves, but in Jesus.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Romans 4:4-6
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
I do believe no one will come unless the Father draws them. There is nothing in me good, nothing. So the only one is good is Jesus, so I can't trust my carnal mind and say there is, so it is something outside of me and that person is Jesus. The only one's who will come is those who listen and learn, not from what is in side us, but Jesus. The one's who are wise in their own eyes trust in their own understanding can't come, because God has hidden the truth from them. The Father isn't going to draw them and they will not come.
So they will not come and the Father will not reveal the truth to them even to this day, only when they turn away from their own understand and turn to Jesus Anyone who turns to Jesus the veil will be taken away.
I do believe in the elect of God out of Israel, God said He will keep the meek and humble who will trust in the Lord they are the elect and through their message God gave them through Jesus, God will included with them those who hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Those who God hasn't hidden the truth from those who depend on their own understanding. Jesus word is Spirit and life, so it isn't inside you, but in Christ Jesus and His words are not His own, but the Father who sent Him
These are people who do not trust in themselves, but in Jesus.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Romans 4:4-6
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
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I don't particularly make a distinction and separation on the "to do next of a list to salvation" concerning the words conviction, regeneration, and repentance like illustrated on the list.
Rather, I think that within the regeneration process God places the measure of faith into the person; the resulting effects are Godly conviction and repentance. These are not once but a continuum from the implantation of faith through eternity.
The reason is the different work of the Holy Spirit as it relates to the world and to the believer.
To the world, the Holy Spirit's job is to rebuke the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. As a result of this general job of the Holy Spirit to the whole world, every person falls under a certain fleshly conviction when they do wrong unless they are a psychopath.
There is life changing difference in the quality and effectiveness of conviction and repentance at the implantation of God’s faith into the regenerated life of the believer.
It is then that Christ recognizes the conviction and repentance as His in which to grant forgiveness and cleansing.
To show this principle in Scriptures, follow closely what is found in 2 Corinthians where it says, “For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death.”
Again, ALL scripture says you must believe to have life.
Jm 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
1 Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
These are just a few of the many verses of scripture that say a person has to believe to have life. You have to believe to be justified. You have to believe to be saved.
You will never understand this as long as you cling to the false doctrine of Total Depravity that says men are unable to believe. Men are depraved, all men are sinners, but man is able to believe God's word, and if he believes on Jesus his sins are forgiven and he is made a son of God.
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
You are not regenerated before faith. You must receive Jesus and believe on his name. To those who receive him and believe, to them God gives power to BECOME sons of God. You are not a regenerated, born again, spiritually alive son of God before you believe.
There are ZERO verses of scriptures that support regeneration before faith. Believe the scriptures, or believe Augustine and Calvin, your choice.
Jm 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned
1 Pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
Acts 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
These are just a few of the many verses of scripture that say a person has to believe to have life. You have to believe to be justified. You have to believe to be saved.
You will never understand this as long as you cling to the false doctrine of Total Depravity that says men are unable to believe. Men are depraved, all men are sinners, but man is able to believe God's word, and if he believes on Jesus his sins are forgiven and he is made a son of God.
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
You are not regenerated before faith. You must receive Jesus and believe on his name. To those who receive him and believe, to them God gives power to BECOME sons of God. You are not a regenerated, born again, spiritually alive son of God before you believe.
There are ZERO verses of scriptures that support regeneration before faith. Believe the scriptures, or believe Augustine and Calvin, your choice.
you can preach the Gospel at a funeral, which happens every time it is given unto spiritually dead people, and only God can cause that which is dead in sin to come to life!
THEN the person can and will be able to respond by faith in Christ to be saved!
Winman,
First of all, no one is saying that anyone can be saved without believing. What is being said is that dead people can't believe and therefore God must open their hearts to enable them to believe. There is a whole pile of texts that support that and I posted some of them earlier. Simply denying that such texts exist makes it very difficult to have a rational discussion with you.
I'd like to consider the case of Lydia in Acts 16:14f. Lydia was a God-fearer which means that she came to the local synagogue in Thyatira and listened to the teaching there. [There was no synagogue in Philippi which is why she went down to the river with some other women to pray] She was interested in religion and particularly in Yahveh. She was seeking God but had not yet found Him. God had begun a work on her heart, and as Paul spoke to her about the Lord Jesus, He completed that work by bringing her to repentance and faith.
Note however, that Lydia could not open her own heart to respond to Paul. Nor could Paul, by any power of his own, open her heart. It was Almighty God, who alone gives new life to dead sinners, who used Paul's words to open fully her heart, and then she believed.
Steve
I would argue that the man who had 1000 demons was not in any condition to believe before he was regenerated.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is simply untrue Winman and you Know It. I have posted the first 19 verses of Ephesians chapter two dozens of times on this forum yet you continue to deny the truth. Is it because the BIG I won't allow you to give all Glory to God.
Now there is a good "Up Close & Personal" Example:thumbs::applause:
Your Big I insult is very childish, grow up.
Faith is not even mentioned in Ephesians 2 until verse 8, and this is the controversial verse that only Ref/Cals believe the gift is faith. The very next verse refutes this.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Verse 9 shows the "gift" in verse 8 is not faith, it is unnecessary and redundant to say "not of works" if the gift is faith, faith is always contrasted to works.
This is the first time faith is even mentioned in this chapter.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
This verse is simply saying God has made us alive who were formally dead in trespasses and sins. But this refutes your view, because until you believe and your sins are forgiven you are dead in sin. Because of your Calvinist blinders you cannot grasp this.
Look, you cannot be regenerated for even a millionth of a second if you are still in your sins. While you are in your sins you are condemned by God and under the sentence of death. You cannot possibly be spiritually alive until your sins are removed, and your sins cannot be removed until you believe. Therefore, faith precedes regeneration, and I have already showed at least half a dozen verses that say exactly that.
Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This verse is not complicated unless your mind has been bent by false doctrine. It clearly shows that believeing is the cause and life (regeneration) the effect. This verse does not say, "and that living ye might believe" as Calvinism falsely teaches. Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture. No, this verse says, "and that believeing ye might have life".
You can call me names, poke fun, whatever, your doctrine is error and the exact opposite of what scripture says. Any person who truly desires to know the truth will see this.
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You are confusing Jesus casting out the devils with salvation. I don't know what the man himself thought, he may not have been even self aware or self conscious of himself while he was under demonic control.
But I bet you this, after Jesus cast those demons out and he was in possession of his own mind again, I would bet you he believed on Jesus and was regenerated.
Mar 5:15 And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.
It is probably very true this man did not believe on Jesus before he was healed, the scripture implies until the devils were cast out he was not in his right mind, he was probably insane. Jesus in mercy cast the demons out when the man was unable to believe.
Mar 5:18 And when he was come into the ship, he that had been possessed with the devil prayed him that he might be with him.
And see, now that the man was cured and had possession of his mind, he trusted in Jesus and wanted to be with him.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Sorry, that should be the first 10 verses if Ephesians chapter 2!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No it is not childish, it is true. You inadvertently admit you are wrong in the following statement.
Yes Winman but in verses 4 and 5 we see that God has already made spiritually alive those who were dead in trensgressions.
Ephesians 2:4, 5 NASB
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
And by grace you have been saved. God needed no help. Hs does it all. Give Him all Glory!
Yes Winman God has already told you that you were saved by Grace. Now He is mentioning the essential of faith. No one who believes the doctrine of Sovereign Grace disputes that faith is an integral part of the Salvation experience and that it is the gift of God as verse 8 states. Paul notes that faith is a gift so that people like you cannot boast: Me and God!
Wrong again Winman. God through Paul has already told you that you are saved by grace, that is unmerited favor, a GIFT. It should not be necessary now to tell you that salvation is a gift. Faith is the GIFT!
That is correct Winman!
I did not see the word formerly used. Don't read something that is not there! The passage simply states that God made us, who were dead in trespasses and sins, alive .
Not really Winman. You have already confessed above that faith is not mentioned until verse 2:8. Was God through Paul misleading the people at Ephesus.
I cannot help that Calvin believed what the Bible teaches about salvation. Would to God that everyone would be willing to give all Glory to God. Calvin was wrong on the issue of infant baptism and the mode of baptism.
You will have to discuss this with God. I cannot conceive of a millionth of a second
You are correct. But in regeneration God removes that sentence of death.
Winman are you sinless at this present time?
No! You have showed me above that regeneration precedes faith. Regeneration occurs according to verse 5. Faith is not given until verse 8!
No one who believes in the Doctrine of Grace would ever dispute Scripture. They understand fully that except for the Grace of God they would still be lost in their sins.
I have already confessed that: "No one who believes in the Doctrine of Grace would ever dispute Scripture."
I haven't called you names Winman. I have simply questioned the influence of the BIG I in your Christian life. It is you who have repeatedly called me a Calviniat!
I propose two considerations.
First, the idea of regeneration of the "old man" is a false view. Regeneration is the installing of a new nature making us "a new creature created in Christ Jesus." It is not reshaping, remolding, or retooling the old. The old will be discarded as trash when we pass into eternity.
I think this is one of the main stumbling blocks of the Arminian thinking. They generally reject any thinking which refutes that they cannot get to salvation under their own steam by their own choice. Eventually the thinking leads to a rejection of the blood atonement, salvation through Christ alone, and eternal hell.
Second, that if one is "dead in trespasses and sin" they are incapable of expressing anything acceptable to God and must be given a new nature.
Again, I refer to the post I made earlier in this thread about the work of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is given to the whole world BUT it is not given to save! That is most important to remember! The Holy Spirit doesn't save, it cannot save, it is not its job to save. That work belongs to Christ, alone!
Jesus said in John 16:8 - 11,
"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."
Please note: "Because they believe not on me." They don't believe. Doesn't say they don't choose to believe, or they might eventually choose to believe, but rather it very pointedly says, "because they believe not on me." Why? Because of sin, ("Dead in trespasses and sin") they are incapable of belief and expressing Godly sorrow (repentance).
As a proof text of the above statement, I pointed to a verse that clarifies the conviction and repentance in the believer versus that offered by the world (people of the world).
In 2 Cor.7:10 "For godly sorrow works repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world works death."
That verse shows how the person who is not saved may certainly confess, but it is a "sorrow of the world" and works death.
The difference must be the delivery into one who is dead a "new nature" in which faith ("God gives the measure of faith") is given. It is because of that Faith, that the person is capable of expressing "Godly sorrow" and true "repentance to salvation."
The new nature is a gift from God.
The faith implanted into the person is a gift from God.
The confession and repentance expressed through that faith is to salvation.
The person is left then with two natures (not one which is reshaped) the old fallen nature never receives anything of the Spirit of God. Therefore that struggle, that constant war between what is earthy, fleshly, and ungodly versus what the new nature brings begins.
You have made some assumptions in this post.
You assume "right mind" is not salvation. I suggest that you are right.
However, I would suggest that the "right mind" was reflective of the new nature given. Certainly wasn't his old sin filled demonic controlled nature.
The fact is UNTIL he was given a new nature (demons gone) he was incapable of belief. Your post would indicate this by saying, "It is probably very true this man did not believe on Jesus before he was healed, ...."
Certainly it is true that he wanted to follow Christ, which may be an indication of belief. Unfortunately, the Scriptures don't clarify how long he was in his right mind (new nature) before belief.
Apparently some time had passed between the pigs and the ship. Long enough for him to recognize his nakedness, and for folks to volunteer their garments. Perhaps they were stunned into silence and wonder for sometime until one or more realized what had taken place, and acquired empathy and resolve for the man's physical embarrassing condition.
Another period of time had to pass for the local gossip chain to carry the news into town to the town upper crust, and for them to consult together and in mass go not only to see what happened but to form a plan of what to say when they arrived.
Your assumption that he could express belief before given a new nature doesn't fit the narrative very well.
New Nature then belief.
Well Agedman, Calvinist theology never ceases to amaze me. We have folks here that say they were regenerated, born of God, spiritually alive LONG BEFORE they heard the gospel and believed on Jesus. So this fellow was walking around spiritually alive, yet spirtually dead in his trespasses and sins for months, possibly years. I have posted quotes from a fellow named Voorhis with Sproul who said this very thing is possible.
Yet, the Bible ALWAYS says you have to believe to have life.
Now, I don't understand exactly what you Calvinists mean when you say regeneration, but it cannot mean life, because you must first believe to have life according to numerous scriptures.
The problem is that Calvinists are taught that unregenerate man cannot desire or will to be saved. This is easily proven false by the Philipian jailer, he wanted to be saved, and he was sincere. But he had not believed yet, so he was still dead in sin. This proves a person who is spiritually dead can not only desire to be saved, he also has the ability to believe.
Calvinism errs from the letter "T".
Cornelius is another example, he was not saved, we know this because the angel told him that Peter would tell him words whereby he would be saved. Yet he worshipped God, prayed always, and gave alms. And God recognized his alms.
Once you realize that Total Inability is false, the scriptures will suddenly make sense. Men are sinners, but they can respond to God when he calls, as Adam and Eve did after they sinned. And if a man comes when God calls, and trusts in Christ, then God will give him the power (regeneration) to become a son of God.
One thing for sure, that "T" of yours does not stand for truth.
Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and they (the DEAD) that hear shall live (Jn 5:25).
Yet, the Bible ALWAYS says you have to believe to have life.
Now, I don't understand exactly what you Calvinists mean when you say regeneration, but it cannot mean life, because you must first believe to have life according to numerous scriptures.
The problem is that Calvinists are taught that unregenerate man cannot desire or will to be saved. This is easily proven false by the Philipian jailer, he wanted to be saved, and he was sincere. But he had not believed yet, so he was still dead in sin. This proves a person who is spiritually dead can not only desire to be saved, he also has the ability to believe.
Calvinism errs from the letter "T".
Cornelius is another example, he was not saved, we know this because the angel told him that Peter would tell him words whereby he would be saved. Yet he worshipped God, prayed always, and gave alms. And God recognized his alms.
Once you realize that Total Inability is false, the scriptures will suddenly make sense. Men are sinners, but they can respond to God when he calls, as Adam and Eve did after they sinned. And if a man comes when God calls, and trusts in Christ, then God will give him the power (regeneration) to become a son of God.
One thing for sure, that "T" of yours does not stand for truth.
Jesus said the DEAD shall hear his voice, and they (the DEAD) that hear shall live (Jn 5:25).
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