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Is God Insincere in His Gospel Message?

SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
Matthew 13:10-15
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don't forget what this passage actually says, "their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes". THEY HAVE CLOSED, it it NOT the Lord Who has hidden the Gospel Truth from them, but they CHOOSE not to accept what Jesus is saying.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
SavedByGrace said:
don't forget what this passage actually says, "their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes". THEY HAVE CLOSED, it it NOT the Lord Who has hidden the Gospel Truth from them, but they CHOOSE not to accept what Jesus is saying.
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They were kept blinded by the Lord, were hardened still further when Gospel was preached unto them!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
Think that he is saying here that God defines the world and all as being those who are the elect!
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I am a little slow, but I eventually figured that out. I know that many "Calvinists" tend to argue it that way and it CAN mean that, but I think that is a bit of a forced fit on the text. Is it inconceivable and anti-scriptural that God loves people "saints" and "sinners" collectively? Jesus lamented for Jerusalem ... the same people that he also called "whitewashed tombs" and "hypocrites" (to their face) and a "faithless wife" (through the Prophets).

God is complicated. :)
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
Matthew 13:10-15
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"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. . . . Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: . . ." Luke 8:9-10, "And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. . . ."

The parables where not to His disciples. see also Mark 4:10-11. Jesus did teach the parable of the sower that His disciples might understwnd the parwbles too.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
I am a little slow, but I eventually figured that out. I know that many "Calvinists" tend to argue it that way and it CAN mean that, but I think that is a bit of a forced fit on the text. Is it inconceivable and anti-scriptural that God loves people "saints" and "sinners" collectively? Jesus lamented for Jerusalem ... the same people that he also called "whitewashed tombs" and "hypocrites" (to their face) and a "faithless wife" (through the Prophets).

God is complicated. :)
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God loves all, but has a special love for his own family?
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
37818 said:
"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. . . . Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: . . ." Luke 8:9-10, "And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. . . ."

The parables where not to His disciples. see also Mark 4:10-11. Jesus did teach the parable of the sower that His disciples might understwnd the parwbles too.
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The sheep receive Him as their Shepherd, and follow Him, but the goats will not!
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
he was a very confused person, also voting for the murder of that heretic!
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It is you who are a bit confused.

If your court has a law that the Penalty for Murder is "death by hanging" and a man accused of murder is brought before the court and you find him guilty of murder, because he was guilty of the crime, then the State will hang him and your vote does not mean that you wanted that man hung. It means that you agree that he was guilty of the crime of which he was accused and suffered the penalty prescribed by Law.

If your court has a law that the Penalty for Littering is "death by hanging" and a man accused of littering is brought before the court and you find him guilty of littering, because he was guilty of the crime, then the State will hang him and your vote does not mean that you wanted that man hung. It means that you agree that he was guilty of the crime of which he was accused and suffered the penalty prescribed by Law.

Geneva had a law that the Penalty for Heresy is "death by burning" and Servetus was accused of heresy and brought before the court where Calvin was one of the men that found him guilty of heresy, because he was guilty of the crime of heresy, then the State burned him at the stake after consulting with every other Protestant Government in Europe and they all recommended the same course of action. John Calvin opposed burning as too physically cruel and petitioned the court to have Servetus beheaded (a faster and less painful execution), however the Court rejected Calvin's request.

So Calvin is guilty of agreeing that Servetus was a heretic (which he probably was since this was not the first court to condemn him as such), and Calvin is guilty of believing heretics should be killed (as EVERY Government in Europe in the 16th Century did), and Calvin is guilty of not having enough influence at the Geneva Court to get a slow "burning" changed to a quick "beheading".
 
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atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
SavedByGrace said:
that is your personal opinon, which is against what even the Greek experts say!
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That is an oversimplification. The Greek word literally means "orderly arrangement" and has a range of meanings. His interpretation is one of the meanings of the word as it is used in another verse, as is your preferred interpretation of "all of mankind". In this verse, even the experts will admit that there is some wiggle room. So it is true that the MAJORITY favor "all mankind" as the intended meaning, it is overstepping to claim that the MINORITY EXPERT OPINION is just Alan's opinion and "against what the experts say". It is only against what SOME experts say and it is supported by what OTHER experts say.

SavedByGrace said:
I rest my case, typical Calvinistic response!
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Typical "Calvinist Hater" response.
Be honest in your discussions and just stick to the facts.
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
They were kept blinded by the Lord, were hardened still further when Gospel was preached unto them!
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WHERE is your evidence to show this? This is what is called a perversion of what the Bible teaches! It is interesting that I posted a thread yesterday, on Jesus and the Jews in John chapter 5, and not a single Calvinist/Reformed responded! Why? because they simply cannot answer the FACT that Jesus is concerned for the salvation of the very Jews who wanted to murder Him! It is this avoiding of passages from Scripture, and the twisting of others, is the hallmark for the Calvinist/Reformed.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
atpollard said:
It is you who are a bit confused.

If your court has a law that the Penalty for Murder is "death by hanging" and a man accused of murder is brought before the court and you find him guilty of murder, because he was guilty of the crime, then the State will hang him and your vote does not mean that you wanted that man hung. It means that you agree that he was guilty of the crime of which he was accused and suffered the penalty prescribed by Law.

If your court has a law that the Penalty for Littering is "death by hanging" and a man accused of littering is brought before the court and you find him guilty of littering, because he was guilty of the crime, then the State will hang him and your vote does not mean that you wanted that man hung. It means that you agree that he was guilty of the crime of which he was accused and suffered the penalty prescribed by Law.

Geneva had a law that the Penalty for Heresy is "death by burning" and Servetus was accused of heresy and brought before the court where Calvin was one of the men that found him guilty of heresy, because he was guilty of the crime of heresy, then the State burned him at the stake after consulting with every other Protestant Government in Europe and they all recommended the same course of action. John Calvin opposed burning as too physically cruel and petitioned the court to have Servetus beheaded (a faster and less painful execution), however the Court rejected Calvin's request.

So Calvin is guilty of agreeing that Servetus was a heretic (which he probably was since this was not the first court to condemn him as such), and Calvin is guilty of believing heretics should be killed (as EVERY Government in Europe in the 16th Century did), and Calvin is guilty of not having enough influence at the Geneva Court to get a slow "burning" changed to a quick "beheading".
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If we were to judge Calvin by the standards and practices of the time, was within the bounds of the law, but also would say that is a real slippery slope to be on, as one man heresy is anothers truth!
 
SavedByGrace

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
atpollard said:
Calvin is guilty of not having enough influence at the Geneva Court to get a slow "burning" changed to a quick "beheading".
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both equals MURDER. This is what the Holy Bible very clearly teaches. No excuses can be made regardless of who the person is!
 
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