SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
the points that I have made, and thus far ignored, that Jesus in speaking to these Jews, wanted all of them to be saved. His words are that of slavation for those who would accept and believe. There are no limits here.
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Is God Insincere in His Gospel Message?
- Thread starter SavedByGrace
- Start date
the points that I have made, and thus far ignored, that Jesus in speaking to these Jews, wanted all of them to be saved. His words are that of slavation for those who would accept and believe. There are no limits here.
he knew His own and they knew Him, as they responded to his voice, but rest did not!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
but Jesus spoke these words to ALL those Jews present, and was sincere when He says, "but I mention it that you may be saved" (verse 34)
37818
Well-Known Member
The goats thought they were sheep saying, Matthew 25:44, "Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" See also Matthew 7:21-23.
As will many in cults and isms will say!
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Sorry sunshine, but the same Law of Moses that you are misinterpreting the commandment "Thou shall not murder" list a large number of actions for which God COMMANDS that the guilty person shall be put to death. I know that you have read them since you quote the OT so fluently.
- [Deu 17:12 KJV] 12 And the man that will do presumptuously, and will not hearken unto the priest that standeth to minister there before the LORD thy God, or unto the judge, even that man shall die: and thou shalt put away the evil from Israel.
- [Deu 18:20 KJV] 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
- [Deu 22:25 KJV] 25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
- [Deu 24:7 KJV] 7 If a man be found stealing any of his brethren of the children of Israel, and maketh merchandise of him, or selleth him; then that thief shall die; and thou shalt put evil away from among you.
- [Exo 21:12, 15-17, 29 KJV] 12 He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. ... 15 And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. 16 And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death. 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. ... 29 But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.
- [Exo 22:19 KJV] 19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
- [Exo 31:14-15 KJV] 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it [is] holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth [any] work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh [is] the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth [any] work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
- [Exo 35:2 KJV] 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
- [Lev 20:2, 9-13, 15-16, 27 KJV] 2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. ... 9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood [shall be] upon him. 10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. 11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. 12 And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood [shall be] upon them. 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. ... 15 And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast. 16 And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. ... 27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood [shall be] upon them.
- [Lev 24:16-17, 21 KJV] 16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death. 17 And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death. ... 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death.
- [Num 1:51 KJV] 51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
- [Num 3:10, 38 KJV] 10 And thou shalt appoint Aaron and his sons, and they shall wait on their priest's office: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death. ... 38 But those that encamp before the tabernacle toward the east, [even] before the tabernacle of the congregation eastward, [shall be] Moses, and Aaron and his sons, keeping the charge of the sanctuary for the charge of the children of Israel; and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
- [Num 15:35 KJV] 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
- [Num 18:7 KJV] 7 Therefore thou and thy sons with thee shall keep your priest's office for every thing of the altar, and within the vail; and ye shall serve: I have given your priest's office [unto you] as a service of gift: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
- [Num 35:16-18, 21, 30-31 KJV] 16 And if he smite him with an instrument of iron, so that he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 17 And if he smite him with throwing a stone, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. 18 Or [if] he smite him with an hand weapon of wood, wherewith he may die, and he die, he [is] a murderer: the murderer shall surely be put to death. ... 21 Or in enmity smite him with his hand, that he die: he that smote [him] shall surely be put to death; [for] he [is] a murderer: the revenger of blood shall slay the murderer, when he meeteth him. ... 30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death by the mouth of witnesses: but one witness shall not testify against any person [to cause him] to die. 31 Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which [is] guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.
- [Deu 13:5 KJV] 5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
- [Deu 17:6 KJV] 6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; [but] at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
- [Deu 21:22 KJV] 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
- [Deu 24:16 KJV] 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
so it is fine for YOU to get a few mormons and JW's and the like, and take them to a cliff and throw them over?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You have jumped the shark, sir.
Calvin did not execute anyone, he only served on the Jury.
Serveus was executed by the State for crimes against the State. It was a law of the State of Geneva that he violated and was arrested for. He was executed like any other criminal that violated the laws of the government.
I am not a Government.
I have no laws that anyone could violate except a bedtime for my daughter.
There is no capital punishment for violating any of my household laws.
I have no control over whether the Government chooses to execute murderers or to not have a death penalty.
If I did round up Mormons and JWs and throw them off cliffs (no small feat here in Florida, we are not known for our cliffs), then I would imagine that the GOVERNMENT would arrest me and charge me with a crime and punish me according to the law of the land. Just like the Government of Geneva did with Servetus when he deliberately violated THEIR laws.
None of these facts change the reality that the same God that commanded "Do not murder" also gave laws that carried a Death Penalty, so God must see a difference between an individual killing his neighbor and the Government killing a convicted criminal ... even if YOU do not.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
I believe The Bible.
If you are calling me , "A Satanist", by calling me, "a Calvinist", then I don't think that is smart.
I think you are complimenting me, by saying I believe that all Individual souls of Mankind were under The Wrath of God and deserving of Hell, as Punishment for their Eternal, Infinite, sins against The Trice-Holy God of The Universe, Who is PERFECT.
The Bible has Taught the same thing for thousands of years.
A Greek person's flesh is no different than anyone else's flesh.
Because, God So Loved, not only The Jews (in answer to, "What must I do to INHERIENT Eternal Life"), but also those of the rest of the world, The Gentiles, that He Gave His Only Begotten Son, to Die and Pay the Penalty of sin for those Elect, who WILL ALSO BE DETERMINED to BE: "whosoever" that are Given Repentance and Belief in Jesus, should not perish in Hell, but Have The Everlasting Life that God Planned for them.
" ... I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3b
The Persic version reads "men": but not every man in the world is here meant,
or all the individuals of human nature;
for all are not the objects of God's special love, which is here designed, as appears from the instance and evidence of it, the gift of his Son: nor is Christ God's gift to every one;
for to whomsoever he gives his Son, he gives all things freely with him;
which is not the case of every man.
Nor is human nature here intended, in opposition to, and distinction from, the angelic nature;
for though God has showed a regard to fallen men, and not to fallen angels, and has provided a Saviour for the one, and not for the other;
and Christ has assumed the nature of men, and not angels;
yet not for the sake of all men, but the spiritual seed of Abraham;
and besides, it will not be easily proved, that human nature is ever called the world: nor is the whole body of the chosen ones, as consisting of Jews and Gentiles, here designed; for though these are called the world, John 6:33; and are the objects of God's special love, and to them Christ is given, and they are brought to believe in him, and shall never perish, but shall be saved with an everlasting salvation;
yet rather the Gentiles particularly, and God's elect among them, are meant; who are often called "the world", and "the whole world", and "the nations of the world", as distinct from the Jews;
see Romans 11:12, compared with Matthew 6:32.
The Jews had the same distinction we have now, the church and the world;
the former they took to themselves, and the latter they gave to all the nations around: hence we often meet with this distinction, Israel, and the nations of the world;
on those words,
""let them bring forth their witness", that they may be justified, Isaiah 43:9 (say (b) the doctors) these are Israel; "or let them hear and say it is truth", these are "the nations of the world".''
And again (c),
"the holy, blessed God said to Israel, when I judge Israel, I do not judge them as "the nations of the world":''
and so in a multitude of places: and it should be observed, that our Lord was now discoursing with a Jewish Rabbi, and that he is opposing a commonly received notion of theirs, that when the Messiah came, the Gentiles should have no benefit or advantage by him, only the Israelites;
so far should they be from it, that, according to their sense, the most dreadful judgments, calamities, and curses, should befall them; yea, hell and eternal damnation.
"There is a place (they say (d),) the name of which is "Hadrach", Zechariah 9:1. This is the King Messiah, who is, , "sharp and tender"; sharp to "the nations", and tender to "Israel".''
And so of the "sun of righteousness", in Malachi 4:2, they say (e),
"there is healing for the Israelites in it: but the idolatrous nations shall be burnt by it.''
And that (f).
"there is mercy for Israel, but judgment for the rest of the nations.''
And on those words in Isaiah 21:12, "the morning cometh", and also the night, they observe (g),
"the morning is for the righteous, and the night for the wicked; the morning is for Israel, and the night for "the nations of the world".''
And again (h),
"in the time to come, (the times of the Messiah,) the holy, blessed God will bring "darkness" upon "the nations", and will enlighten Israel, as it is said, Isaiah 60:2.''
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Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Christ here speaks as a man, and the minister of the circumcision, and expresses an human affection for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and an human wish, and will for their temporal good; which he very aptly signifies by the hen, which is a very affectionate creature to its young, and which it endeavours to screen from danger, by covering with its wings. So the "Shekinah" with the Jews is called, , "the holy bird" (m); and that phrase, , "to betake one's self, or to come to trust under the wings of the Shekinah", is often used (n) for to become a proselyte to the true religion, and worship of God, as Jethro, and Ruth the Moabitess did. An expression much like to this here is used by an apocryphal writer of 2:Esdras:
"I gathered you together, as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings: but now, what shall I do unto you? I will cast you out from my face.'' (2 Esdras 1:30).
It seems to be a simile much in use with that people. Our Lord is to be understood not of his divine will, as God, to gather the people of the Jews internally, by his Spirit and grace, to himself; for all those whom Christ would gather, in this sense, were gathered, notwithstanding all the opposition made by the rulers of the people; but of his human affection and will, as a man, and a minister, to gather them to him externally, by, and under the ministry of his word, to hear him preach; so as that they might be brought to a conviction of, and an assent unto him as the Messiah; which, though it might fall short of faith in him, would have been sufficient to have preserved them from temporal ruin, threatened to their city and temple, in the following verse. Instances of the human affection, and will of Christ, may be observed in Mark 10:21 which will of his, though not contrary to the divine will, but subordinate to it, yet not always the same with it, nor always fulfilled: whereas his divine will, or his will as God, is, always fulfilled: "who hath resisted his will?" this cannot be hindered, and made void; he does whatsoever he pleases: and further, that this will of Christ to gather the Jews to himself, is to be understood of his human, and not divine will, is manifest from hence, that this will was in him, and expressed by him at certain several times, by intervals; and therefore he says, "how often would I have gathered", &c. whereas the divine will is one continued, invariable, and unchangeable will, is always the same, and never begins or ceases to be, and to which such an expression is inapplicable; and therefore these words do not contradict the absolute and sovereign will of God, in the distinguishing acts of it, respecting the choice of some persons, and the leaving of others. And it is to be observed, that the persons whom Christ would have gathered, are not represented as being unwilling to be gathered; but their rulers were not willing that they should, and be made proselytes to him, and come under his wings. It is not said, "how often would I have gathered you, and you would not!" nor, "I would have gathered Jerusalem, and she would not"; nor, "I would have gathered thy children, and they would not"; but, "how often would I have gathered thy children, and ye would not!" Which observation alone is sufficient to destroy the argument founded on this passage in favour of free will. Had Christ expressed his desire to have gathered the heads of the people to him, the members of the Jewish sanhedrim, the civil and ecclesiastical rulers of the Jews: or had he signified how much he wished, and earnestly sought after, and attempted to gather Jerusalem, the children, the inhabitants of it in common, and neither of them would not; it would have carried some appearance of the doctrine of free will, and have seemed to have countenanced it, and have imputed the non-gathering of them to their own will: though had it been said, "they would not", instead of, "ye would not", it would only have furnished out a most sad instance of the perverseness of the will of man, which often opposes his temporal, as well as his spiritual good; and would rather show it to be a slave to that which is evil, than free to that which is good; and would be a proof of this, not in a single person only, but in a body of men. The opposition and resistance to the will of Christ were not made by the people, but by their governors. The common people seemed inclined to attend his ministry, as appears from the vast crowds, which, at different times and places, followed him; but the chief priests, and rulers, did all they could to hinder the collection of them to him, and their belief in him as the Messiah; by traducing his character, miracles, and doctrines, and by menacing the people with curses, and excommunications, making a law, that whoever confessed him should be turned out of the synagogue. So that the plain meaning of the text is the same with that of Matthew 23:13 and consequently is no proof of men's resisting the operations of the Spirit and grace of God; but only shows what obstructions and discouragements were thrown in the way of attendance on the external ministry of the word. In order to set aside, and overthrow the doctrine of grace, in election, and particular redemption, and effectual calling, it should be proved that Christ, as God, would have gathered, not Jerusalem, and the inhabitants of it only, but all mankind, even such as are not eventually saved, and that in a spiritual, saving way and manner, to himself; of which there is not the least intimation in this text: and in order to establish the resistibility of the grace of God, by the perverse will of man, so as to become of no effect; it should be shown that Christ would have savingly converted persons, and they would not be converted; and that he bestowed the same grace upon them, he does bestow on others, who are converted: whereas the sum of this passage lies in these few words, that Christ, as man, out of a compassionate regard for the people of the Jews, to whom, he was sent as the minister of the circumcision, would have gathered them together under his ministry, and have instructed them in the knowledge of himself, as the Messiah; which if they had only notionally received, would have secured them, as chickens under the hen, from impending judgments, which afterwards fell upon them; but their governors, and not they, would not; that is, would not suffer them to receive him, and embrace him as the Messiah. So that from the whole it appears, that this passage of Scripture, so much talked of by the Arminians, and so often cited by them, has nothing to do with the controversy about the doctrines of election and reprobation, particular redemption, efficacious grace in conversion, and the power of man's free will. This observation alone is sufficient to destroy the argument founded on this passage, in favour of free will,
(h) Misn. Sanhedrin, c. 1. sect. 5. (i) lb. c. 7. sect. 1.((k) R. Isaac Arama in Genesis 47.apud Galatin. Arcan. Cath. ver. l. 3. c. 5. (l) Jarchi in Isa. i. 21. (m) Zohar in Numb. fol. 106. 3. & Imre binah in ib. (n) Tzeror Hammor, fol. 77. 4. &. 115. 2. Vid. Targum in Ruth ii. 12. Zohar in Exod. fol. 28. 3. & 29. 2.