Is God Insincere With The Gospel Offer?

[Strannik]

Romans 6:16, ". . . Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? . . ."
Romans 10:16, ". . . But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?. . ."

Here, even your example shows that in order to change masters, slaves need the will and faith that the New Master will be Better.

 

[Van]

If as Calvinism claims, the lost are unable to understand and affirmatively respond to the gospel, then the offer of salvation through the preaching of the gospel to the lost is insincere.

OTOH, if as the Bible claims, Christ died for all mankind, and therefore salvation is available to all who believe, and God has not predetermined who can believe, then the offer of salvation is sincere.

So simple a child can understand it...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

are you a Calvinist? What you have written requires that all sinners must possess a "free will", to "repent and turn to Christ".

What I have written (post #3) is basic Reformed belief. You are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother Hypercalvin.
What would be great is that you would take the time to find out what Reformed beliefs actually are before posting ream after ream of inaccuracy.

'The preaching of the Gospel to the conversion of sinners is absolutely free; no way requiring as absolutely necessary, any qualifications, preparations, or terrors of the law, but only and alone the naked soul, a sinner and ungodly, to receive Christ crucified, dead and buried, and risen again; who is made a prince and a Saviour for such sinners as through the Gospel shall be brought to believe on Him' [1st London Particular Baptist Confession of Faith 1646 XXV]

 

[SavedByGrace]

find out what Reformed beliefs actually are before posting ream after ream of inaccuracy.

because the "reformed" themselves don't really know what they believe in!

If the reformed accept that the Gospel Message is for the entire human race, then it is ONLY a sincere Message, if Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, or else it is insincere! Can you grasp this?

 

[Alan Gross]

Alan, I think that your theology is making you mad!

Giving NO consideration to "our sins" being only referring to those Paul was speaking to that were Saved and regarding himself, as Saved, is illiterate.

Assuming "our sins" indicates every human being?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

because the "reformed" themselves don't really know what they believe in!

If the reformed accept that the Gospel Message is for the entire human race, then it is ONLY a sincere Message, if Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, or else it is insincere! Can you grasp this?

What one has to do is to believe the Bible. If there seems to be a paradox in the word of God it is because our finite minds cannot understand it (Romans 11:33-36).

John 6:39. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.' God has given to Christ a people to redeem, and He has lost none of them (John 17:6, 12). Now if our Lord died for every single person in the world, then He has lost vast numbers of them. Therefore Christ did not die for every single person in the world QED.
John 6:40. 'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise Him up at the last day.'
And here is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ, and the preacher's warrant to preach the Gospel to all. No one who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith will be turned away. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved'

Now if that is an insincere offer, then you are accusing God of insincerity. If you think there is a paradox then you have to accept it because it is the word of God who cannot lie. But in fact it is neither. The Gospel goes out to all, 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.' 'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, but men preferred darkness rather that light because their deeds were evil.' 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.' Men and women freely reject Christ, not because God prevents them from coming - 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' - but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts, and they will not come because they love their sin too much. They see Christ as a kill-joy come to stop their fun. Unless God chose some, and drew them irresistibly, there would be no one saved.

If you would like another example of this supposed paradox, try this: "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest......." (Matthew 11:27-28).

 

[SavedByGrace]

Giving NO consideration to "our sins" being only referring to those Paul was speaking to that were Saved and regarding himself, as Saved, is illiterate.

lets put is this way. Do you believe that the Gospel Message is to be proclaimed to every single human being, as per Mark 16:15; Colossians 1:23, etc? Do you believe that Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15: 1,3, "I declare unto you the Gospel...that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures". If this is part of the Gospel Message, and this Message is to be preached to every single human being, then it must follow that it is intended for every single human being, and that the OUR SINS is for every single human being! This is what the Bible clearly says, not theology!

 

[AustinC]

Here we see that God has predestined to salvation those whom He foresaw that they would be saved. That is, He knew it beforehand...
--------------------------------------------------

28 Moreover, we know that to those who love God, who are called according to His will, all things work together for good.
29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be like the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 But those whom He predestined, he called, and those whom He called, He justified; and those whom he justified, he glorified.
31 What can I say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?
(Rom. 8: 28-31)
----------------------

But here we see that the Lord God does not judge by foreknowledge or predestination, but by specific sins and misdeeds.
That is, God can judge against His own prediction and intention about a person
-----------------------------------------------------------------

11 Say to them, "As I live," says the Lord God, " I do not want the death of a sinner, but that the sinner should turn from his way and live." Turn, turn from your evil ways; why should you die, O House of Israel?
12 And you, son of man, speak to the children of thy people: the righteousness of the righteous will not deliver on the day of his crimes, and the wicked for their iniquity shall not fall thereby in the day from his wickedness, and the righteous on the day of his transgression can't stay alive for their righteousness.
13 When I tell the righteous man that he will live, and he trusts in his own righteousness and does unrighteousness, then all his righteous deeds will not be remembered, and he will die of his unrighteousness, which he has done.
14 But when I say to the wrongdoer, 'You will die by death,' and he will turn from his sins and do justice and righteousness,
15 If this wrongdoer returns the pledge, pays for what he has stolen, and walks according to the laws of life, doing nothing evil, he will live, he will not die.
16 None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered to him; he has begun to do justice and righteousness, and he will live.
17 But the children of your people say, 'The way of the LORD is wrong,' while their way is wrong.
18 When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and begins to commit iniquity, he will die for it.
19 And when the wicked man has turned from his iniquity, and has begun to do justice and righteousness, he will live for it.
20 But you say, ' The way of the Lord is wrong!' I will judge you, House of Israel, every one according to his ways.
(Ezek.33:11-20)
=================================================

What, then, is the outcome of all this? The result is that God has chosen all of us to be saved, but not all of us leave our sins, and therefore many go to perdition, since those who have sinned have a place there by their own actions.

Your conclusion is false.

Our corruption is guilty at conception by nature of Adam's rebellion. God is just in condemning all humans for He says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

God has not chosen all humanity as you falsely claim. In fact, Jesus tells us in John 10 that this is not true. Paul restates this in Romans 9.

Strannik, you make Jesus death on the cross of small significance while you raise human will up over and above God himself. Your teaching is utterly false.

 

[SavedByGrace]

What one has to do is to believe the Bible. If there seems to be a paradox in the word of God it is because our finite minds cannot understand it (Romans 11:33-36).

John 6:39. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.' God has given to Christ a people to redeem, and He has lost none of them (John 17:6, 12). Now if our Lord died for every single person in the world, then He has lost vast numbers of them. Therefore Christ did not die for every single person in the world QED.
John 6:40. 'And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise Him up at the last day.'
And here is the sinner's warrant to come to Christ, and the preacher's warrant to preach the Gospel to all. No one who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith will be turned away. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved'

Now if that is an insincere offer, then you are accusing God of insincerity. If you think there is a paradox then you have to accept it because it is the word of God who cannot lie. But in fact it is neither. The Gospel goes out to all, 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him.' 'And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, but men preferred darkness rather that light because their deeds were evil.' 'But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.' Men and women freely reject Christ, not because God prevents them from coming - 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' - but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts, and they will not come because they love their sin too much. They see Christ as a kill-joy come to stop their fun. Unless God chose some, and drew them irresistibly, there would be no one saved.

If you would like another example of this supposed paradox, try this: "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. Come to Me all you who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest......." (Matthew 11:27-28).

by your clever human skills, you have not even dealt with the OP! IF the preaching of the Gospel is for every single human being, and this Gospel as Paul tells us, is that Jesus died for OUR sins, it can only mean that the "OUR", refers to every single human being, or else this preaching is insincere! It is NOT God Who can be insincere, but the theology of the Reformed/Calvinist. They assume some paradox here, but there is not!

 

[AustinC]

by your clever human skills, you have not even dealt with the OP! IF the preaching of the Gospel is for every single human being, and this Gospel as Paul tells us, is that Jesus died for OUR sins, it can only mean that the "OUR", refers to every single human being, or else this preaching is insincere! It is NOT God Who can be insincere, but the theology of the Reformed/Calvinist. They assume some paradox here, but there is not!

sbw, the "our" in Paul's statement is other believers, not all humanity.

We preach reconciliation to all and those who believe their need for reconciliation are the "our" in Paul's statement.

Sigh, you keep lifting up humanity while you attempt to cast God down from his throne. You make me so sad by your treatment of God.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

by your clever human skills, you have not even dealt with the OP! IF the preaching of the Gospel is for every single human being, and this Gospel as Paul tells us, is that Jesus died for OUR sins, it can only mean that the "OUR", refers to every single human being, or else this preaching is insincere! It is NOT God Who can be insincere, but the theology of the Reformed/Calvinist. They assume some paradox here, but there is not!

There is nothing insincere with telling telling 'all' men (that is, everyone we can find who will listen) that if they will trust in Christ, He will save them. That is, in every sense, Gospel truth.
But as for Christ dying for 'our sins' (1 Corinthians 15:3), 'our' means Paul's sins and those to whom he is writing. Who are they? '.....Those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with those who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours' (1 Corinthians 1:2).
And if you were sincere you would admit that twice in my post #26, I say that the paradox is supposed and not actual.

This concludes my participation in this thread.

 

[Dave G]

Some on here are posting false theology which is against the Bible

SBG, from where I'm sitting,
You're accusing people who don't understand the Bible the same way that you do, of not only being false believers ( which you cannot know for absolutely sure ), but of being false teachers.
The first thing that I think that you're overlooking is the fact that spiritual growth, both in knowledge and in grace, is a process that takes sometimes quite a while in the life of a believer.
The second thing that I think you're overlooking, is the fact that the Holy Spirit does just place a visual marker over the head of everyone that is born again;

If He did, I could walk into a church building and sit down with confidence, knowing that everyone there was actually my brother or sister...
Instead of knowing that there are "tares" among the "wheat" of Christ's field and that He has commanded His angels to let them both grow together.

The fact is, false teachers are known by their fruits,
As well as their doctrines...
And I've been watching yours since you came on here.

Be careful in your assessments, friend;
You may find that on Judgment Day, those that you thought were God's enemies were, in fact, His children.

 

[Dave G]

because the "reformed" themselves don't really know what they believe in!

Speaking for myself, I'm not "Reformed" and never was.
But I do know Whom I have believed in, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day ( 2 Timothy 1:12 ).

If the reformed accept that the Gospel Message is for the entire human race, then it is ONLY a sincere Message, if Jesus Christ died for the entire human race, or else it is insincere! Can you grasp this?

Myself, I grasp where you're logically assuming that one must mean the other.
But I do not grasp where you're missing the difference between the Gospel message being preached to all men indiscriminately, and God using it to call His elect to Him.

I also recognize that to you,
God choosing sinners to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) apart from any effort that we make towards Him ( Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6 ) is a concept that is not taught in the Scriptures.
It is, and I see you very clearly rejecting His word on this subject, as well as many others.

Can you grasp the fact that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but that no one will... apart from His mercy and grace?
Can you grasp that God commands that the Gospel be preached among all nations beginning at Jerusalem, and that only His elect will respond?
I can, but it's not something that's easy to understand.

In fact, Peter himself said that some things that Paul taught were hard to understand ( 2 Peter 3:16 ).
I see that God's purposes according to election are a few of them.

 

[SavedByGrace]

SBG, from where I'm sitting,
You're accusing people who don't understand the Bible the same way that you do, of not only being false believers ( which you cannot know for absolutely sure ), but of being false teachers.
The first thing that I think that you're overlooking is the fact that spiritual growth, both in knowledge and in grace, is a process that takes sometimes quite a while in the life of a believer.
The second thing that I think you're overlooking, is the fact that the Holy Spirit does just place a visual marker over the head of everyone that is born again;

If He did, I could walk into a church building and sit down with confidence, knowing that everyone there was actually my brother or sister...
Instead of knowing that there are "tares" among the "wheat" of Christ's field and that He has commanded His angels to let them both grow together.

The fact is, false teachers are known by their fruits,
As well as their doctrines...
And I've been watching yours since you came on here.

Be careful in your assessments, friend;
You may find that on Judgment Day, those that you thought were God's enemies were, in fact, His children.

I have posted this MANY times, and even done a thread on it. Jesus Christ told Judas that He was going to the cross for his sins. Jesus also gave Judas the bread and wine representing His body and blood. And time and again, this Truth in the Bible is rejected by those who refuse to accept that Jesus would do this, because of their own theological system!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Speaking for myself, I'm not "Reformed" and never was.

you have said this before, yet you own language is what they believe! You said that your friend and the Church you attended were also "reformed".

 

[SavedByGrace]

Can you grasp the fact that God commands all men everywhere to repent, but that no one will, apart from His mercy and grace?

IF God Commands that every single person were to repent, regardless of whether they do or not, this shows that God has made the provision in the Death of Jesus for every single person, otherwise this Command is a false one!

 

[SavedByGrace]

The Gospel message is not and never was an "offer"

the fact that the Bible clearly says that the Gospel is rejected by some, shows that it has to be an offer!

 

[Dave G]

@SavedByGrace :

The Gospel message ( not just 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 ) is not and never was an "offer", where men exchange their belief of it for eternal life.
It is a set of promises and truths made to all that will believe...
Not to those who will never believe.

It is the message of redemption, reconciliation and salvation to all who believe it, from the heart...
Not just with the mind and a fleeting profession of "faith" that fractures under the trials and tribulations of this life.

But the Bible does not stop with belief of the Gospel, and neither should any believer that carefully examines it.

For example,
There is a reason why we as men believe it and why most of us do not.
Simply plugging in "free will" to explain that "why" ( when Scripture actually answers the question ), is not something that we as believers should ever do.
Rather,
We should always examine His words and take each and every one of them seriously, when we seek to answer any question about Him from His word.


That said, you are completely free to preach what you see as the Gospel message ( based on your own theology ) to all that will listen to it,
and I am free to do the same.

If I wish to preach that God will save the "whosoever believeth" because they are His elect and that He loves them, then I will do so.
If you wish to preach that God loves everyone and wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( and that the only thing that stands in the way is their free will decision to accept or reject His offer ), then you are free to do so.

In the end, we both stand before a holy God that will judge us for the actions that we take in this life,
and the truths or lies that we preach and teach.


Be advised...
His children are precious to Him.

Anyone that seeks to lead them astray or to cause them to doubt His very words, it would have been better that that man ( or woman ) had a millstone tied around their neck and been dropped in the deepest sea... than to face the wrath of an angry God.

 

[AustinC]

If as Calvinism claims, the lost are unable to understand and affirmatively respond to the gospel, then the offer of salvation through the preaching of the gospel to the lost is insincere.

OTOH, if as the Bible claims, Christ died for all mankind, and therefore salvation is available to all who believe, and God has not predetermined who can believe, then the offer of salvation is sincere.

So simple a child can understand it...

Since God has chosen to call out to His elect through a general call, is it wrong that he activates the faith of the elect through that call so that the elect hear his voice and follow him?

 

[Dave G]

You said that your friend and the Church you attended were also "reformed".

No, I did not.

In fact, we have both been outside of anything "Reformed" for all of our lives ( apart from one visit to a local "Sovereign Grace" Baptist church about 5 years ago ) and have never been influenced by that tradition or set of teachings in any way.

Both of our backgrounds include "Traditionalism" / "Provisionism", and were concentrated in Evangelical Free churches as well as Independent, Fundamental Baptist churches for the greater part of our lives until about 15-18 years ago.

Finally,
Most of what I've learned from God's word is in spite of the teachings that I grew up with, and not because of them.