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Is God Insincere With The Gospel Offer?

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Dave G

Dave G

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
We're just splitting hairs now guys.
One thing is certain: God offering a man a false offer of salvation makes God a cruel deceiver of the worst sort.
Calvinism is a slander to God's character made palatable by the supposed great humility which that heresy allows a man to claim.
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To me, you're misunderstanding the Gospel of His grace, George.

God doesn't offer us as men to save us if we do something.
He promises to save those that believe.
It's not a market deal where we trade one for the other, and it never was.
If that's all that you see, then my heart breaks for you, my friend.

There's so much more to His glorious Gospel than what is presented from most pulpits today;
Much of it is very stark and sobering...

But it all results in His saints glorifying Him for even bothering with them.
 
George Antonios

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
Dave G said:
I'm sorry George, but I disagree.

The criterion is not faith, which is a benefit of being saved, but is rather God's purposes according to election ( Romans 9:11 ).
Paul literally spells it out in Romans 1 through Romans 11.
He tells the Roman believers why they have the faith that they have, which distinguishes them from the unbelievers around them.

The reason why people believe is because of God's work in a willfully rebellious sinner, drawing them to Himself in a merciful act of His grace.
The Lord Jesus tells us the same things in Matthew 11, Matthew 13, John 3, John 6, John 8, John 10 and many other places.

If you are unable to see that, then I am sorry, sir.
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This is simply restating the system. We know the system.

Dave G said:
The criterion is not faith, which is a benefit of being saved, but is rather God's purposes according to election ( Romans 9:11 ).
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That statement is only complete in the mind of the Calvinist because the system itself requires no explanation for the choice made. So I understand that to your mind, this is a complete answer. I was a Calvinist for a while and I distinctly recall once answering my boss that the purpose of God according to election might stand. He was left understandably quizzical.
Scripturally, that's not a complete answer. Paul explains that purpose:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )

I.e. God was illustrating making a choice, not based on a man's work, but based on a man's response to God's call, which Paul will connect to the call to believe on God's Son later in the chapter.

Dave G said:
The criterion is not faith
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Paul says it is. It's beyond me how that can be overlooked:

George Antonios said:
Well let's ask the guy who wrote the chapter. Just check PAUL'S CONCLUSION:

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of FAITH.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:32 WHEREFORE?

Oh, I know! I know! Because of God's eternal decree of unconditional election?!

No:

Because they sought it not by FAITH, but as it were by the WORKS of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and WHOSOEVER [NOT THE "ELECT"] BELIEVETH on him shall not be ashamed.

The conclusion must interpret the development. Calvinism gets so lost in the development of the chapter that it forgets Paul's own conclusion of what he just said.
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V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
Van, you are revealing your crutch again. Invariably, when the Bible reveals you to be wrong, you fall on Calvinism as your psychological means of holding to your false teaching. I, for one, am wondering when you will give up your crutch.
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Once again the Calvinist changes the subject away the premise of my post, and to a vicious and vindictive attack on my character. It is sad to see so many professing Christians willing to engage according to the world's value system.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dave G said:
I recognize the truth of Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18 and many others, Van. That we as men are dead, and the only way that any of us seek Him is because of His work. Seeking the Lord and His ways is a matter of the heart, not a matter of outward obedience.
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Here once again Calvinism denies Matthew 23:13 where some fallen people are seeking God by seeking to enter the kingdom.
Usually when cases are cited where people are seeking God, salvation, eternal life, and the like Calvinism's answer is to say they were not "really" seeking God. However, in this verse, they were effective because they were in the process of entering the kingdom.

Calvinism has no answer, so they will change the subject. Watch and learn...
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dave G said:
I see that they were entering the kingdom, because God had mercy on them and they were / are His elect. In other words, nothing they did, in and of themselves, ever resulted in the Lord granting them His favor.
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Right, here the Calvinist denies Calvinism. According to Calvinism, the people entering were being compelled by irresistible grace, the "I" of the TULIP. But they were prevented from completing their entry, so the grace was not in fact irresistible. SNIP
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dave G said:
So do I, and it says nothing even close to what you've highlighted in red.
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One taint so after another denial of biblical truth.

I know what Acts 13:48 says and Calvinism's claims are no where to be found. Poor translations give an opening for false doctrine. As many as took the gospel's direction to eternal life believed.

The Greek word translated as appointed refers to an agreement by mutual consent. The failure to translate the word accurately provides the bogus foundation for false doctrine.
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member

The Bible Teaches that God is The God He Says He is and not the god the flesh of man would try to change Him to be;

23 "And that he might make known
the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory,



Romans 9:19 'Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?
Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,
Why hast thou made me thus?

21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay,
of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour,
and another unto dishonour?

22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath,
and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering
the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 "And that he might make known
the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 "Even us, whom he hath called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Van said:
One taint so after another denial of biblical truth.

I know what Acts 13:48 says and Calvinism's claims are no where to be found. Poor translations give an opening for false doctrine. As many as took the gospel's direction to eternal life believed.

The Greek word translated as appointed refers to an agreement by mutual consent. The failure to translate the word accurately provides the bogus foundation for false doctrine.
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Your "poor translation" cop-out is just another crutch.
Here are other translations. Essentially, you are calling the vast number of scholars in Greek...poor translators, yet you hold your own paraphrase as superior. That is astonishing.

New International Version
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New Living Translation
When the Gentiles heard this, they were very glad and thanked the Lord for his message; and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.

English Standard Version
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Berean Study Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Berean Literal Bible
And the Gentiles hearing it were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

King James Bible
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

New King James Version
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB 1995
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB 1977
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Amplified Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying [praising and giving thanks for] the word of the Lord; and all those who had been appointed (designated, ordained) to eternal life [by God] believed [in Jesus as the Christ and their Savior].

Christian Standard Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and honored the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they rejoiced and glorified the message of the Lord, and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

American Standard Version
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Contemporary English Version
This message made the Gentiles glad, and they praised what they had heard about the Lord. Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Gentiles hearing it, were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to life everlasting, believed.

English Revised Version
And as the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Good News Translation
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The people who were not Jews were pleased with what they heard and praised the Lord's word. Everyone who had been prepared for everlasting life believed.

International Standard Version
When the gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord. Meanwhile, all who had been destined to eternal life believed,

Literal Standard Version
And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the LORD, and believed—as many as were appointed to continuous life;

NET Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.

New Heart English Bible
As the non-Jewish people heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord. As many as were appointed to everlasting life believed.

Weymouth New Testament
The Gentiles listened with delight and extolled the Lord's Message; and all who were pre-destined to the Life of the Ages believed.

World English Bible
As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Young's Literal Translation
And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
 
Alan Gross

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
George Antonios said:
That doesn't mean that, for example, an omni-potent fiend is automatically righteous even when he does evil.

God must still be righteous, as well as omni-potent.

The reply of O man, who art thou is to a man arguing that it's not just of God not to save him even though he follows the works of the law whereas he saves the man who doesn't work - not to a man arguing that it is not just of God to randomly choose people without a criterion.
Paul tells you at the end of the chapter that there is a criterion, and that criterion of selection is not works, but faith.
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If there is 'a criterion of selection',
or "God is a Liar",
or "God is Insincere",
or "God does evil",

there is No God and No Savior.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
Your "poor translation" cop-out is just another crutch.
Here are other translations. Essentially, you are calling the vast number of scholars in Greek...poor translators, yet you hold your own paraphrase as superior. That is astonishing. [List edited]

New International Version
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

New American Standard Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and all who had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB 1995
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NASB 1977
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

NET Bible
When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice and praise the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life believed.

World English Bible
As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Young's Literal Translation
And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during;
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The Greek word translated as appointed refers to an agreement by mutual consent. The failure to translate the word accurately provides the bogus foundation for false doctrine. Poor translations give an opening for false doctrine. As many as took the gospel's direction to eternal life believed.
 
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Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AustinC said:
Why would David's infant go to heaven?

1) All babies are born sinless and thus are just like God, holy and perfect. Jesus death is unnecessary and in fact each child has the potential to be perfect throughout all its life.

2) God chose to extend grace to a corrupt human with a sin nature without requiring repentance or acceptance as a legal requirement for salvation. The infant is saved solely by grace alone.

3) God did not choose to redeem David's infant and the infant is eternally in hell due to the corrupt nature passed on from Adam to all.

The first option makes Romans 3:23 a lie, since in that scenario not all have sinned nor have they fallen short of the glory of God.

The second option requires faith that God mercifully chose to redeem the infant by extending grace. This is what David seems to indicate.

The third option realizes that a just God keeps his word when He says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, therefore justice is meted out according to the law.

sbw, picks #1 with all its contradictions.

I pick #2, believing by faith that my beloved worships at the feet of the King.

I also accept that #3 is a just and fair option, even though it breaks my heart.
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I also accept both 2 or 3, but seems to to be nature of God for choice 2!
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I can just hear the Calvinist message - now some of you, and only God knows who, will be able to actually understand my message this morning, as for the rest of you, you were damned from all eternity and nothing you can do will save yourself or your loved ones.

Now here is the close of the message - Christ died for some of you for no known reason, God just decided to save a few. He made the rest of you so you are unable to desire God's righteous perfection, or His peace, or any of the other blessings of heaven. Nope, you down deep hate God. Can't you just see the audience applauding. :)
 
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