Is God Patient With His Decree?

[Baptizo]

Could it be because he does not destroy them instantly, as they sin?

God has the freedom to destroy any sinner at any time He sees fit. In the case of Pharaoh, He could have wiped him out a long time ago but kept him around to demonstrate His power.

He does not destroy them instantly, but allows time for men to repent?

He allows time for men to repent, but at some point, they may reach the point of no return and are given over to a reprobate mind.

Romans 1:24
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves

 

[Baptizo]

His longsuffering and patience is tied into His own chosen people, as He is willing to put with a great deal with them in order to make sure they will become His people and be the sheep of the great Shephard of their souls

Why would God need to be patient with His chosen people if they have been predestined to salvation before they are born? God knows the inevitable outcome, so what is there to be patient about?

 

[Reynolds]

Except that the vessels of mercy were at one time vessels of wrath and God was patient with them.

Ephesians 2:3
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Vessels of wrath never become chosen vessels. Our nature was the same, but God chose before creation which vessels he would draw to Him.

 

[Ben1445]

Vessels of wrath never become chosen vessels. Our nature was the same, but God chose before creation which vessels he would draw to Him.

You keep saying that. Where does God say it.

 

[Reynolds]

You keep saying that. Where does God say it.

Romans 9:28-21
Plain as can be.

 

[Reynolds]

Why would God need to be patient with His chosen people if they have been predestined to salvation before they are born? God knows the inevitable outcome, so what is there to be patient about?

He is patient knowing the elect must answer the irresistible call.

 

[Ben1445]

Romans 9:28-21
Plain as can be.

Romans 9:28-33.
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So the people who work their way stumble on the law, but the people who trust Christ in faith and rely completely upon Him will be saved.
So I read that you can’t work your way to heaven. I don’t see anything about determining that certain people are not allowed to believe on Him.
Scripture does say “ whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.”

 

[Reynolds]

Romans 9:28-33.
For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So the people who work their way stumble on the law, but the people who trust Christ in faith and rely completely upon Him will be saved.
So I read that you can’t work your way to heaven. I don’t see anything about determining that certain people are not allowed to believe on Him.
Scripture does say “ whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely.”

Whosoever will. The non elect won't.

 

[Ben1445]

Whosoever will. The non elect won't.

It doesn’t say anything about non elect. I doubt it is of coincidence that right after the whosoever will invitation, a warning is given not to change Scripture.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Rev 22.17-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

The elect are anyone who believes on Christ. There is no limit of who can come. The people excluded are those who don’t come by Christ. But All may.

 

[Ben1445]

Whosoever will. The non elect won't.

That statement is true only in an academic way. What is meant by it is not scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

What part of what man does is not ordained to come to pass? What do you mean by this? I am not sure what you mean by this, can you help me understand, maybe give an example or two?

SIN If God ordained all that comes to pass as you say He has to do than you have made Him the only real sinner as man is just doing what God ordained that he do.

Not a biblical view but it seems to be one you are willing to support.

 

[Baptizo]

He is patient knowing the elect must answer the irresistible call.

But they are going to answer the call no matter what because He decreed it, according to the Calvinist. In any case, you have God showing patience in time and you either have to take it literally or as a figure of speech.

 

[Van]

Romans 9:22-24 - What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Longsuffering - having or showing patience in spite of troubles, especially those caused by other people.

If the assertion is that God has decreed all things that come to pass, including the existence of vessels of wrath, how does it logically make sense that He is longsuffering with them?

I am just responding to this excellent OP, I have not read the following 4 pages of comments.

The premise, held by many posting on this board, that God has predetermined and predestined whatsoever comes to pass, does not fit with God being long-suffering, waiting for some to become vessels of mercy.

The biblical view is God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass, thus God is not the author of sin. He can justly punish sinners because they were not compelled to sin by His predestination.

 

[Reynolds]

But they are going to answer the call no matter what because He decreed it, according to the Calvinist. In any case, you have God showing patience in time and you either have to take it literally or as a figure of speech.

He is patient because the call is irresistible and the election is unconditional. I don't believe the moment of salvation is determined, but the certainty of it is.

 

[Zaatar71]

SIN If God ordained all that comes to pass as you say He has to do than you have made Him the only real sinner as man is just doing what God ordained that he do.

Not a biblical view but it seems to be one you are willing to support.

What can come to pass, if it was not ordained to come to pass? In other words, how can something happen that was not ordained to happen?
Even the sinful acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass. God does not make them do it, They sin willingly.

 

[Silverhair]

What can come to pass, if it was not ordained to come to pass? In other words, how can something happen that was not ordained to happen?
Even the sinful acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass. God does not make them do it, They sin willingly.

So if the evil acts are ordained to happen is there any way that they could not happen? Not under your theological view. So since God has "ordained" the evil He becomes responsible for the evil.

That is the problem with the C/R view, they never think through what they say.

 

[Baptizo]

He is patient because the call is irresistible and the election is unconditional. I don't believe the moment of salvation is determined, but the certainty of it is.

If it’s certain, then why is God longsuffering? Sorry that I can’t wrap my mind around the logic of it.

 

[Reynolds]

If it’s certain, then why is God longsuffering? Sorry that I can’t wrap my mind around the logic of it.

He is long-suffering because He waits on the elect until they surrender. No elect person dies prior to his surrender to Christ.

 

[Baptizo]

He is long-suffering because He waits on the elect until they surrender. No elect person dies prior to his surrender to Christ.

If the outcome is inevitable, then all God has to do is sit back and watch. If I set up a row of dominos and knock down the first one, it’s inevitable that the last one is going to be knocked down at the end of it all. There’s no reason for me to be patient with the last domino since I am the one that set up the chain of events.

 

[Reynolds]

If the outcome is inevitable, then all God has to do is sit back and watch. If I set up a row of dominos and knock down the first one, it’s inevitable that the last one is going to be knocked down at the end of it all. There’s no reason for me to be patient with the last domino since I am the one that set up the chain of events.

It's inevitable, but not on a concrete time schedule.