Featured Is God the author of Evil/Sin?

OK. tonight I have to work on a sermon, but some time tomorrow I will deal with this post in depth.
All I will say now is that neither the Bible, nor Reformed theology speaks of God 'forcing' people. What the Bible says is this: 'The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you"' (Jeremiah 31:3). And the Lord Jesus Himself says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him" (John 6:44). So enough of this 'forcing' nonsense.

More tomorrow as I have time.

 

I find it interesting how a free-will proponent often abandons the Bible and relies solely on belittling John Calvin rather than acknowledging the vast scripture passages that proclaim God's Sovereign authority over all creation.

Notice this thread where those clinging to free will have abandoned the Bible to fall upon the crutch of "I hate John Calvin" as their sole means of standing.
When a number of people share the truth of scripture and kick John Calvin aside, the free will crew still doggedly leans on their "I hate John Calvin" crutch and imagine they have made a legitimate and reasoned argument.

 

Good luck getting past Calvinists' logic.

Calvinist Logic of begging the question:

Bill C: “God determined all things that ever happen, He is Sovereign."

Bob A: "Did God determine the things Jeffrey Dahmer did?"

Bill C: "No, Jeffrey Dahmer did what he did because of his nature."

Bob A: "Who determined Jeffrey Dahmer’s nature?"

Bill C: "God did, He determines all things, He is Sovereign."

 

Put the blame where you will but before God said, "Let there be light," this is what was going to take place.




he who is doing the sin, of the devil he is, because from the beginning the devil doth sin; for this was the Son of God manifested, that he may break up the works of the devil; 1 John 3:8



And Jehovah God planteth a garden in Eden, at the east, and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed; and Jehovah God causeth to sprout from the ground every tree desirable for appearance, and good for food, and the tree of life in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:8,9 & 16,17



And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field which Jehovah God hath made, and he saith unto the woman, 'Is it true that God hath said, Ye do not eat of every tree of the garden?' And the woman saith unto the serpent, 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat, And the woman saith unto the serpent, 'Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we do eat, and of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden God hath said, Ye do not eat of it, nor touch it, lest ye die.' And the serpent saith unto the woman, 'Dying, ye do not die, for God doth know that in the day of your eating of it -- your eyes have been opened, and ye have been as God, knowing good and evil.' And the woman seeth that the tree is good for food, and that it is pleasant to the eyes, and the tree is desirable to make one wise, and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; Gen 3:1-6



And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them. Gen 1:27



Let no one say, being tempted -- 'From God I am tempted,' for God is not tempted of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one, and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed, afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death. Be not led astray, my brethren beloved; James 1:13-16



Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.





Was all of this foreordained before the foundation of the world?



Dying thou dost die.



Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:19-20



Before the man was created sin and death were en-route, so also was redemption from death, by the blood (wherein was life) of the Christ as of a lamb.

 

Firstly, I recommend not reading "Calvinist" teachers, nor do I recommend reading "Arminian" teachers, either.
Each and every question you have can be and is answered by God's very word.

Let's begin with the underlined above:
God does not cause men to sin, Miss E.
James 1:13-15.

He decides who to save from the vast number of stubborn and willfully rebellious sinners, who are fully responsible for their disobedience.
I have no idea where you get this notion that God predestines men to sin, but it isn't from those on this forum who believe and/or teach that God chooses men to salvation through no effort of their own.

See my above.
One does not "logically" necessitate the other.

God's word says He chooses people to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).
He does so because they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

Why?
According to the good pleasure of His will.

He tells us that He has mercy on whom He will, and has compassion on whom He will ( Romans 9:14-18 ).
It also says that He is willing to show wrath and to make His power known, and that He has made both "vessels" of wrath and vessels of His mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ).

Are you willing to believe every word of God, whether or not it "contradicts"?

 

No, I do not.

We as mankind, and the devil and his angels, do a fine job all by ourselves / themselves with making this world an evil place.
All He does is punish our evil...
Whether in this world or Hell to come.

But He does allow it for His own purposes.

To me, this is an interesting, if inaccurate representation of not only what I see in the Scriptures, but which the Bible teaches in its entirety.
Men are fully responsible, and God is fully on His throne.

But it seems to me as if you are unaware of where one stops, and the other never relinquishes control...whether passive or active.

My advice?
Keep reading the Bible, and ignore the commentaries.

 

Amen.

I don't see him mocking you at all, but instead, commending you for your observations of biblical truth, my sister.
One thing that I would never accuse Steve of, is purposefully mocking someone in a vindictive spirit meant to tear them down.

Over the two years or so that I've been here, I've seen a few others that do that sort of thing on the forum, but not him.

 

Amen.

Those who love God are the ones who are the called according to His purpose.
They are "the called" according to HIS purpose.
Why were they called?
According to His purpose.

Election, Miss E.
Those who love God are also the called according to His purpose.
Those who are elect according to the foreknowledge of God love Him, because He first loved them ( 1 John 4:19 ).

Do you love the Lord?
Then it's because He first loved you.

It's called "foreknowledge", and it means to know and love someone, intimately, before they were ever born ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139, Galatians 1:17, Ephesians 2:1-6 ).

 

Benjamin, I think that perhaps you have a misunderstanding of what is being stated by many that you call "Calvinists", as in threads past.

There is no "logic" to it at all, and there never has been.
Please allow me to correct the imaginary conversation above, where I think that you're not seeing some important details:


Bill C: "God sits upon His throne and Has the final say on each and every thing that happens. He, being the sovereign master over all of creation, either permits it, or causes it, and no one can ask Him why."

Bob A: "Did God determine the things that Jeffery Dahmer did?"

Bill C: "No, but He knew what men like Jeffery Dahmer would do, because like all men, Jeffery Dahmer was deterrmined to love his sin and refuse to repent of it. In fact, the Lord gave men like him over to it and allowed them to carry out the evil thoughts and intentions of their own heart, because He had a purpose for allowing them to do so...to judge them for their sins or to forgive them for those same sins through the justifying blood of His own Son."

Bob A: " Who determined Jeffery Dhamer's nature?"

Bill C: " Both God and Jeffery Dahmer did. Jeffery Dhamer wanted his sin, and God gave him over to that which he loved more than God...men like Jeffery Dahmer didn't start out that way, but they spiraled down into it gradually, of their own free will; However, God allowing it still doesn't give Jeffery Dahmer any excuse, because he willfully sinned and loved it. God simply stood back and allowed him to do that which he wanted to do. "

Bob A: "I'm confused...aren't you saying that God made Jeffery Dahmer, knowing full-well that he would commit the sins that he did? "

Bill C: "Yes, I am. According to Romans 9:14-18, He has mercy on which rebellious sinners He wants to, and has compassion on which of them He wants to. According to Romans 9:22-24, the Lord has made some vessels for salvation, and the rest for damnation."

Bob A: " But that's not fair!"

Bill C: " For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. There is not a just man on the earth who does good and sins not. All men are without excuse. The Lord does as he wishes in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. Who are we to question His wisdom and judgment and for creating us? We are the ones who have sinned, each and every one."

Bob A: " I don't understand."

Bill C: " None of God's children, those who have believed on Christ from the heart, understand it all at once. It takes time for the Lord to transform the mind through His word. Just accept His words and believe them by faith, committing your understanding of it to God. Also, know that someday you can and will understand it all, by His grace. The first step is to believe the words on the page, and to not reject one iota of what is written... no matter how contradictory it may seem to you."

Bob A: "OK, what have I got to lose? God says that His word is truth and that He cannot lie...So, I can't go wrong if I believe Him and trust Him at His every word."



@Benjamin,
May the Lord bless you richly in your studies of His word, in your daily walk with Him, and most importantly...
May you always be reminded of the love that He has for each and every one of His children.

 

Well said, I couldn't agree more...

 

You perfectly portrayed my point. Thank you.

 

It's clear that Benjamin prefers his crutch, Dave. No matter how many times it is kicked out from underneath, he will rely on his crutch rather than the word of God.

 

Give him time Austin.

We're all dull of hearing.
Eventually God's word gets through to His people, each and every one of them.

 

So much for the excuse about needing to fix your spell checker.

An obvious troll is obvious.

 

Could God have stopped Jeffrey Dahmer from doing the things that he did?

• If not, then God is not Omnipotent, is He? Therefore God is really just “a god”.
• If yes, then God must have allowed Jeffrey Dahmer to do the things that he did because it served God’s Sovereign plan.

So which is it? Did God sovereignly choose to allow the sin of Jeffrey Dahmer or was “god” impotent to stop it?

What is the ANTI-Calvinist response?

 

Our awesome Sovereign God.
God's word.The word of truth, Chosen, Elect,

Being at least two of us, including myself, used verses from James chapter 1, Question??????

Verse 18 YLT

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures.

Are the, "us." there these of verse one? James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!

a certain first-fruit????

Could. God," if he so wills, prior to, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." raise one up like the first-fruit?

and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- 1 Cor 15:23,24

 

Yes ,he could also stop everyone believing in Calvinism but we all have a choice to believe the truth of the bible . The issuse is Biblical Authority. If God really did determine everything ,fine . What matters is what the bible says not a system that argues philosophy and tells God what he can and cannot do .

 

What do you think about God causing the most horrendous of all sins? Here's a sample. Do you still think you love and worship him?

Cannibalism, Here’s a sample of God’s judgment that fits equally well with abortion.

“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.” Jeremiah 19:9 (KJV 1900)

“So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.” Deuteronomy 28:55 (KJV 1900)

“The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: They were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.” Lamentations 4:10 (KJV 1900)

“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” Leviticus 26:29 (KJV 1900)

“Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.” Ezekiel 5:10 (KJV 1900)

“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” Leviticus 26:29 (KJV 1900)

“And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:” Deuteronomy 28:53 (KJV 1900)

“And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; And he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: They shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:” Isaiah 9:20 (KJV 1900)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


“And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.” Jeremiah 19:7–9 (KJV 1900)


“Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the Lord have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.” Ezekiel 5:10–13 (KJV 1900)



“And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.” Leviticus 26:23–33 (KJV 1900)

 

Hey, atpollard, I have a loaded for you also, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no?

Could God have stopped you from doing the things that you did?

• If not, then God is not Omnipotent, is He? Therefore God is really just “a god”.
• If yes, then God must have allowed you to do the things that you did because it served God’s Sovereign plan.

So which is it? Did God sovereignly choose to allow the sin of beating your wife or was “god” impotent to stop it?

What is your Calvinist response?

My response is that you are responsible for YOUR actions in TRUTH!

Is God not Omnipotent that he can't create beings with sense, reason and intellect while being Providentially Sovereign over His creatures rather than Deterministically Sovereign over them? Why do you limit His sovereignty to determinism if not to philosophically fit your Calvinist system?

Simple logic draws out these Truths, such as upholding the attributes of God. For instance, that all of God's ways are judgment and that by aseity He is incapable of evil - is a TRUTH that must be upheld with logic and reason. Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God being Omnipotent cannot mean He can judge and hold responsible His creatures for their sin in which He pre-determined that they must do, that would not be judgment in truth, nor can God be a part of evil. Anymore than God can create a rock so big that even He cannot lift it, - there is no logical truth in that statement and there is no logical truth in your reasoning that God has determined all things, that He must have or He is not Omnipotent is merely begging the question and the TRUTH of your reasoning fails. It doesn't get anymore Biblical than God is Truth and that no evil comes from Him!

Calvinism unavoidably equals determinism. Think about it, all 5 points of the TULIP must logically hinge on strict determinism.

Here is the simple “truths” of Determinism:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = man’s choices
X = evil

So is a man held responsible for his choices which were not freely made?

My "ANTI-Calvinist response" is that the philosophical construct of Calvinism which must logically hold to strict determinism leads you right into Theological Fatalism with the atheists that agree with you boys that God must have determined all things if He is Omnipotent, including evil and therefore man does not have free will (human volition). The problem you have is maintaining the TRUTH of the attributes of God which the Bible clearly says belong to God...

You all can bash logic all you want to, heck most of you don't even recognize that Calvinism is built on a philosophically constructed system, but if you are not using your God given minds to reason you all are nothing more than parrots and puppets. I don't think my engaging you in biblical reasoning is going to change that, especially in this format, but you all have fun in your studies...

 

I think if you believe and interpret that God causes the most horrendous of sins and evil you have a seriously messed up "theology"! I'll let these words from Wesley finish my thoughts here on this one:

"Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!" ~ John Wesley