Is God the author of Evil/Sin?

[Yeshua1]

Hello Miss E.
So tell me what happened. Did God sit there wringing His celestial hands, saying, "How I wish I could stop it, but I'm just not as strong as these awful humans." Or did He say, "I would stop it, but I gave free will to these humans. It was a terrible mistake, but I promised and I can't go back on it now."

Sounds like the issue in "when bad things happen to good people" book!

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, then what does God DO in your eyes Yeshua? Because previously you told me that God chooses who is saved and who is not. So what's stopping you to say God chooses to make men sin or not?

What do you believe? I'd like to know.

In the area of salvation, pretty much agree with the1689 Baptist Confession!
Library1689-confession

 

[Yeshua1]

LOL I say again, I am taking all this from OTHER professed Calvinist teachers!!! It's not my fault you choose to ignore them, and if you do, I guess great, since you don't believe, but I"m sure there are SOME Calvinists who believe what I just posted which is in fact, factual, by other factual Calvinists who believe what I posted in the OP.

check your facts jack

What Calvinist teachers and texts are you reading from?

 

[Yeshua1]

I am asking for the name of JUST ONE PERSON that believes what you claim in the OP. You say MANY CALVINISTS believe it and all I asked for was just one name. Your excuse is pathetic. You cannot provide one name because you are making this nonsense up.

Maybe she is reading a Hyper Calvinist?

 

[Yeshua1]

I find it interesting how a free-will proponent often abandons the Bible and relies solely on belittling John Calvin rather than acknowledging the vast scripture passages that proclaim God's Sovereign authority over all creation.

Notice this thread where those clinging to free will have abandoned the Bible to fall upon the crutch of "I hate John Calvin" as their sole means of standing.
When a number of people share the truth of scripture and kick John Calvin aside, the free will crew still doggedly leans on their "I hate John Calvin" crutch and imagine they have made a legitimate and reasoned argument.

Interesting that some want to see us as using Calvin, and yet we are reformed baptist, not Presbyterians here! prefer the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles!

 

[1689Dave]

I think if you believe and interpret that God causes the most horrendous of sins and evil you have a seriously messed up "theology"! I'll let these words from Wesley finish my thoughts here on this one:

"Such blasphemy this, as one would think might make the ears of a Christian to tingle! But there is yet more behind; for just as it honours the Son, so doth this doctrine honour the Father. It destroys all his attributes at once: It overturns both his justice, mercy, and truth; yea, it represents the most holy God as worse than the devil, as both more false, more cruel, and more unjust. More false; because the devil, liar as he is, hath never said, “He willeth all men to be saved:” More unjust; because the devil cannot, if he would, be guilty of such injustice as you ascribe to God, when you say that God condemned millions of souls to everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels, for continuing in sin, which, for want of that grace he will not give them, they cannot avoid: And more cruel; because that unhappy spirit “seeketh rest and findeth none;” so that his own restless misery is a kind of temptation to him to tempt others. But God resteth in his high and holy place; so that to suppose him, of his own mere motion, of his pure will and pleasure, happy as he is, to doom his creatures, whether they will or no, to endless misery, is to impute such cruelty to him as we cannot impute even to the great enemy of God and man. It is to represent the high God (he that hath ears to hear let him hear!) as more cruel, false, and unjust than the devil!" ~ John Wesley

So if Calvin and others of the same feather are right, you hate God with a passion and worship idols?

 

[Miss E]

OK. tonight I have to work on a sermon, but some time tomorrow I will deal with this post in depth.
All I will say now is that neither the Bible, nor Reformed theology speaks of God 'forcing' people. What the Bible says is this: 'The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying, "I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you"' (Jeremiah 31:3). And the Lord Jesus Himself says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws Him" (John 6:44). So enough of this 'forcing' nonsense.

More tomorrow as I have time.

Saying that God draws them, means that God Himself controls the actions of said believer. Thus, not giving them a choice in the matter. Yes, it IS forcing. That is what this Calvinism promotes and it is wrong.

 

[Miss E]

The FACT of the matter is. Calvinists believe God is entirely sovereign right?

okay

So that means He is sovereign and makes sin happen which is FALSE.

Man commits sin, via free will, and God can make that sin be used for good in His infinite wisdom and power. Yet another mystery of God we will probably never be able to understand!

That is all I'm trying to state here. Why are ya'll so angry and against what I say when I'm just restating your own beliefs? Even your own people have been quoted (as I showed) saying that God is over evil!

 

[Miss E]

Maybe she is reading a Hyper Calvinist?

Yeshua, I ask again, what do YOU believe? Do you belive in God's COMPLETE sovereignty? If so, you believe he controls everyone's actions, which includes EVIL acts. State your beliefs and then we'll talk more.

 

[Miss E]

What do you think about God causing the most horrendous of all sins? Here's a sample. Do you still think you love and worship him?

Cannibalism, Here’s a sample of God’s judgment that fits equally well with abortion.

“And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.” Jeremiah 19:9 (KJV 1900)

“So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.” Deuteronomy 28:55 (KJV 1900)

“The hands of the pitiful women have sodden their own children: They were their meat in the destruction of the daughter of my people.” Lamentations 4:10 (KJV 1900)

“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” Leviticus 26:29 (KJV 1900)

“Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds.” Ezekiel 5:10 (KJV 1900)

“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” Leviticus 26:29 (KJV 1900)

“And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:” Deuteronomy 28:53 (KJV 1900)

“And he shall snatch on the right hand, and be hungry; And he shall eat on the left hand, and they shall not be satisfied: They shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm:” Isaiah 9:20 (KJV 1900)

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“And I will make void the counsel of Judah and Jerusalem in this place; and I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hands of them that seek their lives: and their carcases will I give to be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth. And I will make this city desolate, and an hissing; every one that passeth thereby shall be astonished and hiss because of all the plagues thereof. And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they shall eat every one the flesh of his friend in the siege and straitness, wherewith their enemies, and they that seek their lives, shall straiten them.” Jeremiah 19:7–9 (KJV 1900)


“Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord God; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the Lord have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them.” Ezekiel 5:10–13 (KJV 1900)



“And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.” Leviticus 26:23–33 (KJV 1900)

I don't consider judgement as God making someone sin. I regard it as a punishment.

That's a punishment, not a sin.

 

[1689Dave]

I don't consider judgement as God making someone sin. I regard it as a punishment.

That's a punishment, not a sin.

He made people eat their young. Is that not sin? Can they get to heaven doing it?

 

[AustinC]

Saying that God draws them, means that God Himself controls the actions of said believer. Thus, not giving them a choice in the matter. Yes, it IS forcing. That is what this Calvinism promotes and it is wrong.

This is a false correlation.

When you are imprisoned, you have no capacity to free yourself. No matter how much you attempt, by your free will, you shall not be free.
When someone comes along, opens the cell door, grabs you and walks you out to freedom does that equal forcing you? At some level...yes. You would have stayed in that jail cell your entire life if God hadn't come and opened your cell, then dragged you out to freedom.
So...go ahead and yell at God for lovingly dragging your sorry self out of your cell and bringing you to freedom rather than just leave you be to wallow in your open cell and hope you figured it out.

 

[Miss E]

This is a false correlation.

When you are imprisoned, you have no capacity to free yourself. No matter how much you attempt, by your free will, you shall not be free.
When someone comes along, opens the cell door, grabs you and walks you out to freedom does that equal forcing you? At some level...yes. You would have stayed in that jail cell your entire life if God hadn't come and opened your cell, then dragged you out to freedom.
So...go ahead and yell at God for lovingly dragging your sorry self out of your cell and bringing you to freedom rather than just leave you be to wallow in your open cell and hope you figured it out.

OKAY? So why didn't God drag everyone's sorry butt out of their prison?

What was the STANDARD that God used to save someone?

Faith. If that person had FAITH in Jesus, God saved Him. I agree with that.

 

[Miss E]

He made people eat their young. Is that not sin? Can they get to heaven doing it?

So you agree with the OP that God makes people sin? Hm. Okay.Noted.

 

[atpollard]

What matters is what the bible says not a system that argues philosophy and tells God what he can and cannot do .

The only one that argues what God CANNOT do is the ANTI-Calvinist strawman version of God. For all serious discussion, the question is “What DOES God choose to do and what does God SAY he does?”

[Daniel 4:35 NASB] 35 "All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

 

[1689Dave]

So you agree with the OP that God makes people sin? Hm. Okay.Noted.

Did God cause sin knowing Adam would sin and then creating him? How could he not?

 

[atpollard]

Hey, atpollard, I have a loaded for you also, have you stopped beating your wife yet? Yes or no?

Could God have stopped you from doing the things that you did?

• If not, then God is not Omnipotent, is He? Therefore God is really just “a god”.
• If yes, then God must have allowed you to do the things that you did because it served God’s Sovereign plan.

So which is it? Did God sovereignly choose to allow the sin of beating your wife or was “god” impotent to stop it?

What is your Calvinist response?

My response is that you are responsible for YOUR actions in TRUTH!

Is God not Omnipotent that he can't create beings with sense, reason and intellect while being Providentially Sovereign over His creatures rather than Deterministically Sovereign over them? Why do you limit His sovereignty to determinism if not to philosophically fit your Calvinist system?

Simple logic draws out these Truths, such as upholding the attributes of God. For instance, that all of God's ways are judgment and that by aseity He is incapable of evil - is a TRUTH that must be upheld with logic and reason. Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

God being Omnipotent cannot mean He can judge and hold responsible His creatures for their sin in which He pre-determined that they must do, that would not be judgment in truth, nor can God be a part of evil. Anymore than God can create a rock so big that even He cannot lift it, - there is no logical truth in that statement and there is no logical truth in your reasoning that God has determined all things, that He must have or He is not Omnipotent is merely begging the question and the TRUTH of your reasoning fails. It doesn't get anymore Biblical than God is Truth and that no evil comes from Him!

Calvinism unavoidably equals determinism. Think about it, all 5 points of the TULIP must logically hinge on strict determinism.

Here is the simple “truths” of Determinism:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen

X = man’s choices
X = evil

So is a man held responsible for his choices which were not freely made?

My "ANTI-Calvinist response" is that the philosophical construct of Calvinism which must logically hold to strict determinism leads you right into Theological Fatalism with the atheists that agree with you boys that God must have determined all things if He is Omnipotent, including evil and therefore man does not have free will (human volition). The problem you have is maintaining the TRUTH of the attributes of God which the Bible clearly says belong to God...

You all can bash logic all you want to, heck most of you don't even recognize that Calvinism is built on a philosophically constructed system, but if you are not using your God given minds to reason you all are nothing more than parrots and puppets. I don't think my engaging you in biblical reasoning is going to change that, especially in this format, but you all have fun in your studies...

At least your Calvinist circular logic was short ... your Free Will answer is no less “begging the question” (as you called it), but is also a rambling wall of text. Try rewording it as a pithy conversation like the Calvinist version.

 

[Miss E]

Did God cause sin knowing Adam would sin and then creating him? How could he not?

So you believe in a God that causes both good and evil?

Then why does the Bible say God is Light and in Him there is no darkness at all?

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

 

[Miss E]

At least your Calvinist circular logic was short ... your Free Will answer is no less “begging the question” (as you called it), but is also a rambling wall of text. Try rewording it as a pithy conversation like the Calvinist version.

Why are you throwing bitter taunts back at this man? He is trying to debate with you about the OP. Why are you refusing to have a conversation? You're acting quite childish.

 

[AustinC]

OKAY? So why didn't God drag everyone's sorry butt out of their prison?

Because he's not obligated. All of us are justly jailed and are guilty. The question is: Why drag anyone out? The angels long to figure out that answer since the fallen angels don't get that chance.

What was the STANDARD that God used to save someone?

God never tells us. God is not obligated to tell us. Do you hate God for not telling you? God never told Job why he gave Satan permission to kill Jobs children, all Jobs possessions and take away Jobs health. Instead, God questions Job. Do you hate God for doing that?

Faith. If that person had FAITH in Jesus, God saved Him. I agree with that. .

You cannot have faith without God giving it to you.
If you could create your own faith, then you could brag about the faith you created that lead you to choose God.
Can you not see the arrogance and pridefulness in your demand that you be in control and make your own decisions apart from God? Does it not cause you to shudder? How do you dare speak such arrogance before God and tell him he is evil and a monster for dragging your sorry self out of your prison cell? I am, frankly, shocked at your arrogance and utter disdain for God's gracious rescue and redemption of your life.