Is God the author of Evil/Sin?

[atpollard]

-sigh-

ONCE you put faith and trust in Jesus as your lord, THEN he gives you His holy spirit to help you do those fruits.

I thought that was obvious....

Do you have a reading disorder?

Someone asked how the Reformed know they are among the “elect” and I answered his question. What does your comment have to do with his question or my answer?

No person, Doctrine of Grace or Free Will, that I know claims anyone knows from birth whether they will someday believe the Gospel or will never believe the Gospel. Only God knows that. However the Bible does teach that a person can KNOW whether they are a Child of God ... “by their fruit you will know them”.

Who said that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua, I ask again, what do YOU believe? Do you belive in God's COMPLETE sovereignty? If so, you believe he controls everyone's actions, which includes EVIL acts. State your beliefs and then we'll talk more.

I hold with the scriptures, in that God is always in full control, but He does directly determines certain events, and also permits things to happen!

Best example would be the Cross, as the trinity had set up that event from eternity past, but God determined that it would happen at that set time and place in history, but the sinners who nailed Jesus upon that Cross wanted to do that, God did not have to cause/force them to sin!

 

[atpollard]

Either way, you had to put faith in Jesus at SOME point, so if you have that down, well I can't say you aren't saved, but I can say you have a wrong view of HOW you got saved.

Why don’t you point out the verse that teaches “God loves us, because we first loved Him”?

 

[1689Dave]

Ohhh, okay, NOW you're saying it's a JUDGEMENT, not a sin, that God is making those mothers commit.

Interesting.

It's a judgement in many cases. But consider Paul.

“What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (NCPB)

“For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, ‘Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth’. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:17–18 (NCPB)

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:21 (NCPB)

From the same Same Lump? Thank God you are not a cannibal.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Saying that God draws them, means that God Himself controls the actions of said believer. Thus, not giving them a choice in the matter. Yes, it IS forcing. That is what this Calvinism promotes and it is wrong.

It is not I who says that God draws people, but God Himself in the Bible.

 

[Miss E]

[Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.​

[John 10:25-30 NASB] 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."​

[John 6:43-45 NASB] 43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.​

Your gripe really isn’t with me, it is with the Apostles and, if scripture really is inspired, then your gripe is with God. I can’t help you with that one. EVERY saved person is a special snowflake precisely because each and every one of us was unworthy to be picked ... but God picked us anyway.

[Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

Right, Picked us simply because he COULD, not based on anything we had in ourselves, which is faith. So what you're saying, and stop me if i'm wrong, God chooses based on NOTHING WE DO AT ALL. (note, i'm not talking about good works)

And my gripe isn't with God, it's with you and your false teachings entirely. And I can guarantee you're taking all those verses OUT OF CONTEXT of what their intended meaning actually is.

God gives each man the opportunity to believe upon His son to be saved. That is in the bible constantly told to us.

 

[Miss E]

It is not I who says that God draws people, but God Himself in the Bible.

You're saying it, and you're not denying that it means God controls our actions against our will. So what you mean to say is that you believe God is a dictator (as i'ave said all along) and hand picks whom he wishes based on no standard WHATSOEVER.

 

[Miss E]

Do you have a reading disorder?

Someone asked how the Reformed know they are among the “elect” and I answered his question. What does your comment have to do with his question or my answer?

No person, Doctrine of Grace or Free Will, that I know claims anyone knows from birth whether they will someday believe the Gospel or will never believe the Gospel. Only God knows that. However the Bible does teach that a person can KNOW whether they are a Child of God ... “by their fruit you will know them”.

Who said that?

I'm not denying that by their fruit you won't know them. But even then if those people aren't constantly showing those fruits, you can just put them in with the other self-righteous people in the world who pretend to do good when in fact they are wicked underneath.

 

[Miss E]

Why don’t you point out the verse that teaches “God loves us, because we first loved Him”?

That is not what I'm saying. God loves us regardless. But He won't send us to heaven if we don't truly choose to love Jesus first. Obviously. It is due to God's love that people choose to love God back. When they realize they are not deserving of love and see themselves as sinners and repent and turn to Christ DUE TO HIS LOVE FOR US.

 

[Miss E]

It's a judgement in many cases. But consider Paul.

“What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,” Romans 9:22–23 (NCPB)

“For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, ‘Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth’. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:17–18 (NCPB)

“Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” Romans 9:21 (NCPB)

From the same Same Lump? Thank God you are not a cannibal.

If I were a cannibal it would be because I chose to be. Not because God dictated I be one. <3

 

[Van]

Hi Miss E,

The see the usual suspects have been furiously posting the usual screed.

So let me return to your OP:
1) Does God choose people for salvation? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
2) Does God choose them during their lifetime on the basis of faith in the truth? Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:13
3) Were all those chosen first "drawn" by the Father? Yes John 6:44
4) Are all those "drawn" chosen for salvation? Nope, the #2 &3 soils of Matthew 13 were drawn through the gospel, yet were not chosen.
5) Calvinists accept that God ordaines (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet did not ordain our each and every sin that comes to pass. According to Calvinism we can only choose to sin, and never choose holy volitions, but this does not mean we are ordained to sin. Cognitive dissonance? Yes.
6) The correct understanding of God's sovereignty is that God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

 

[Miss E]

Hi Miss E,

The see the usual suspects have been furiously posting the usual screed.

So let me return to your OP:
1) Does God choose people for salvation? Yes, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
2) Does God choose them during their lifetime on the basis of faith in the truth? Yes 2 Thessalonians 2:13
3) Were all those chosen first "drawn" by the Father? Yes John 6:44
4) Are all those "drawn" chosen for salvation? Nope, the #2 &3 soils of Matthew 13 were drawn through the gospel, yet were not chosen.
5) Calvinists accept that God ordaines (predestines) whatsoever comes to pass, yet did not ordain our each and every sin that comes to pass. According to Calvinism we can only choose to sin, and never choose holy volitions, but this does not mean we are ordained to sin. Cognitive dissonance? Yes.
6) The correct understanding of God's sovereignty is that God causes or allows whatsoever comes to pass.

Thank you for your enlightening statements Van. I appreciate your respectful input.

I'm just saying that SOME proclaimed Calvinists say God makes people sin, as I showed in the text I posted earlier. I can give more screenshots if that would help anyone out. But I'm telling you what I saw with my own eyes, if you don't' believe that God makes you sin (Calvinist or not) then YAY FOR YOU! I'm not bashing you, but I AM warning people to be careful who they take their inspiration from for their whatever belief because some of those same believers believe false things about God/Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

Just do

-sigh-

ONCE you put faith and trust in Jesus as your lord, THEN he gives you His holy spirit to help you do those fruits.

I thought that was obvious....

Just do the legally obligated response and God is then obligated to give. It's like buying a pizza. Give them the cash and get the pizza.
Of course, grace is non-existent in that transaction, but why should a reader of the Bible care...as long as I control my destiny by my free will...

 

[AustinC]

And you remain blind and lost in your view of God.

Either way, you had to put faith in Jesus at SOME point, so if you have that down, well I can't say you aren't saved, but I can say you have a wrong view of HOW you got saved.

Not at all. By God's amazing grace, I"once was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see."
When God made me alive with Christ, God gave me faith to believe His promises.
I have a very biblical view of how God saved me, gave me faith and daily sanctified me for His glory. It is a wonderful blessing to rest in the more than capable arms of God.

 

[Miss E]

Just do

Just do the legally obligated response and God is then obligated to give. It's like buying a pizza. Give them the cash and get the pizza.
Of course, grace is non-existent in that transaction, but why should a reader of the Bible care...as long as I control my destiny by my free will...

How many times must I go over this pure and simple logic?

God offers His son (grace) which if we recieve His grace and believe upon His son, we are granted salvation. HOW is that taking away God's grace? We all deserve hell! But God's grace via His son gives us a way out. We either accept it or reject it.

God still has all the glory in power in the saving. Why do you think that makes us like God to WILLINGLY serve Him or NOT?

Do you want us to be like robots without a will? Because that's what you sound like you want.

 

[Miss E]

Not at all. By God's amazing grace, I"once was lost, but now am found. Was blind, but now I see."
When God made me alive with Christ, God gave me faith to believe His promises.
I have a very biblical view of how God saved me, gave me faith and daily sanctified me for His glory. It is a wonderful blessing to rest in the more than capable arms of God.

So OKAY I GET IT NOW. God granted you the ABILITY TO BE SAVED. Which is just another way of saying God picked you to be saved while not picking these other people, thus, not giving them the ability to have faith .

BASED ON WHAT DID GOD DECIDE TO GRANT YOU FAITH TO BELIEVE AND NOT CINDY LOU OVER HERE?

ANSWER THAT AND I'LL *THINK* about being converted to your RIDICULOUS view.

 

[AustinC]

Right, Picked us simply because he COULD, not based on anything we had in ourselves, which is faith. So what you're saying, and stop me if i'm wrong, God chooses based on NOTHING WE DO AT ALL. (note, i'm not talking about good works)

Why would anyone stop you from stating what the Bible so richly declares.
All our righteousness is as filthy rags. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. All we, like sheep, have gone astray.
You have stated a glorious truth, MissE. God chose us based upon nothing we had done to earn his favor. That, my friend, is Amazing Grace. How sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like me.

 

[atpollard]

And I can guarantee you're taking all those verses OUT OF CONTEXT of what their intended meaning actually is.

That would be quite a trick since I quote paragraphs so you can read the context for yourself. However, quoting verses out of context is not something you can be accused of since you just post opinions without Scripture.

 

[Van]

Thank you for your enlightening statements Van. I appreciate your respectful input.

I'm just saying that SOME proclaimed Calvinists say God makes people sin, as I showed in the text I posted earlier. I can give more screenshots if that would help anyone out. But I'm telling you what I saw with my own eyes, if you don't' believe that God makes you sin (Calvinist or not) then YAY FOR YOU! I'm not bashing you, but I AM warning people to be careful who they take their inspiration from for their whatever belief because some of those same believers believe false things about God/Jesus.

Yes the "T" of the TULIP says the fallen cannot choose holy volitions, thus we can only choose to sin. Frequently in seeking to defend the indefensible, you will find posters who deny the actual meaning of the T and claim it only means we do not have the ability to save ourselves. On and on they post denials, ad hominems and misrepresentations yet claim they are earnestly seeking truth. As some might say, we can judge the tree by its fruit. (Matthew 12:33)

 

[AustinC]

That is not what I'm saying. God loves us regardless. But He won't send us to heaven if we don't truly choose to love Jesus first. Obviously. It is due to God's love that people choose to love God back. When they realize they are not deserving of love and see themselves as sinners and repent and turn to Christ DUE TO HIS LOVE FOR US.

Pay the money, or you don't get the pizza...but I love you regardless...