Is God through with Isreal, based on this?

[kyredneck]

Can you admit that the Church is referred to as the 'Israel of God' in Gal 6:16?

NO!
Believe that what Apostle paul is referencing here is that ONLY those among the race/peopl of the jewish nation that DO believe in jesus as their Messiah, the remnant saved by Grace in Romans by God, unto THEM are the spiritual blessings of those who are "truely jews!"

NOT referencing really the Church at large, just a distinct part of it, IE believing Jews!

The Apostle paul always was clear to linate the difference still between "spiritual" isreal, believing jews, now aprt of the Church, while extending forth the promises to God still to come for "national isreal"

How does any of that refute that Paul referred to the Church as the Israel of God here?:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

 

[Dr. Walter]

How does any of that refute that Paul referred to the Church as the Israel of God here?:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

he does not say the "church" is the Israel of God! His point is that the "new creature" rather than circumcision or uncircumcision are definitive of the Israel of God. That is precisely what he teaches in Romans 2:26-28 and 9:6-8. Circumcision or the lack therefore is not defintive of the "Israel of God" although it is definitive of Israel "after the flesh."

 

[JesusFan]

How does any of that refute that Paul referred to the Church as the Israel of God here?:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

Apostle paul was addressing that thos eamong the Church body of Christ who believe in jesus as messiah would fit the desription "spiritual isreal"

Still saw in him that Isreal and Church 2 seperate entities, as Church age is for now, and national isreal will be once Jesus returns, and the postponed kingdom offered to them in Acts now being fulfilled at that time!

Think that a large difference is that we see the promised Kingdom tot he Jewish nation postponed bY God as part of His master Plan to get gentiles saved by the jewish messiah, and once done dealing with gentiles, the dealings with Jewish nation gets put back online!

 

[kyredneck]

he does not say the "church" is the Israel of God!

Neither does he say the "church" is not the Israel of God.

His point is that the "new creature" rather than circumcision or uncircumcision are definitive of the Israel of God.

And this rules out the Church how?

That is precisely what he teaches in Romans 2:26-28 and 9:6-8. Circumcision or the lack therefore is not defintive of the "Israel of God" although it is definitive of Israel "after the flesh."

And this proves that the Church is not the Israel of God how?

 

[J.D.]

he does not say the "church" is the Israel of God! His point is that the "new creature" rather than circumcision or uncircumcision are definitive of the Israel of God. That is precisely what he teaches in Romans 2:26-28 and 9:6-8. Circumcision or the lack therefore is not defintive of the "Israel of God" although it is definitive of Israel "after the flesh."

Isn't the "new creature" the Jew/Gentile New Covenant Church?

 

[kyredneck]

Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12:2

If they're no longer Gentiles they are __________________ (fill in the blank)

 

[J.D.]

Neither does he say the "church" is not the Israel of God.



And this rules out the Church how?



And this proves that the Church is not the Israel of God how?

Nothing like duplication of effort! Notice the time of posting....

Great minds....

 

[kyredneck]

Nothing like duplication of effort! Notice the time of posting....

Great minds....

:thumbsup:

****************

"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed..."

Why did Christ say that of Nathanael?

If our mother is the Jerusalem that is above, what does that make us?

 

[JesusFan]

Isn't the "new creature" the Jew/Gentile New Covenant Church?

actually, this is the "Mystery: that was hidden from those under Old Covenant, namely thatyjat Gentiles would also be called the people of God of the Jewish people!

Point here is this is the present Age of grace, both saved jews/gentiles are in one Body of Christ, but the Lord postponed NOT canceled out his OT promises to national isreal, nor replaced them witht he Church

When jesus returns and sets up the fulness of the Kingdom upon this earth, those jews alive than will get the fulfillement of the promises made to therir pathriarches given unto them!

 

[Greektim]

actually, this is the "Mystery: that was hidden from those under Old Covenant, namely thatyjat Gentiles would also be called the people of God of the Jewish people!

Point here is this is the present Age of grace, both saved jews/gentiles are in one Body of Christ, but the Lord postponed NOT canceled out his OT promises to national isreal, nor replaced them witht he Church

When jesus returns and sets up the fulness of the Kingdom upon this earth, those jews alive than will get the fulfillement of the promises made to therir pathriarches given unto them!

That's not what Paul says. He said the promises are fulfilled in Jesus. There is no hint of postponement with Paul. And Paul said that the promises are fulfilled in Jesus not Israel. 2 Cor. 1:20.

(yet again no Scripture citation)

 

[Dr. Walter]

Isn't the "new creature" the Jew/Gentile New Covenant Church?

If so, then what is "circumcision" and "uncircumcision"????? He is talking about the "new man" within the believer that circumcision is a type of - regenerate condition.

 

[J.D.]

That's not what Paul says. He said the promises are fulfilled in Jesus. There is no hint of postponement with Paul. And Paul said that the promises are fulfilled in Jesus not Israel. 2 Cor. 1:20.

(yet again no Scripture citation)

Right! Acts 13 speaks to this also:

v29: And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

v32-33a: And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again;

 

[Dr. Walter]

Neither does he say the "church" is not the Israel of God.

So, you are going to build a doctrine on silence when the clear and explicit teaching of Paul in Romans 11 contradicts your "silence"???????

And this rules out the Church how?

It rules out the Church because it is impossible to harmonize the term "Israel" in Romans 11:25-28 with the term "church". If you think not, I will be more than happy to provide the evidence!

And this proves that the Church is not the Israel of God how?

Because it cannot be harmonized with Paul's extended use of the term "Israel" in Romans 9-11.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Ye know that when ye were Gentiles ye were led away unto those dumb idols, howsoever ye might led. 1 Cor 12:2

If they're no longer Gentiles they are ____SEED OF ABRAHAM BY FAITH_ (fill in the blank)

The "seed" of Abraham come from two sources! God promised Abraham a "seed" from his own loins an ethnic ELECT NATION and he promised him a "seed" from THE NATIONS without confusing the two but finding common ground in the word "seed" metaphorically "by faith"!

 

[kyredneck]

If so, then what is "circumcision" and "uncircumcision"????? He is talking about the "new man" within the believer that circumcision is a type of - regenerate condition.

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

Doc, explain to me why I couldn't interchange 'circumcision' and 'Israel of God' in v 3 to make it read this way:

'for we are the Israel of God, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh'

 

[Dr. Walter]

2 Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the concision:
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3

Doc, explain to me why I couldn't interchange 'circumcision' and 'Israel of God' in v 3 to make it read this way:

'for we are the Israel of God, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh'

You can do anything you like, but that does not mean it is right. Circumcision is a type like the passover is a type. The purpose of a type is to convey a truth. The truth of circumcision is not restricted to merely Jews.

However, simply because all the "seed" of Abraham must be circumcised in heart does not mean that there are not distinctions between PHYSICAL "seed" of Abraham circumcised in heart versus GENTILE "seed" of Abraham circumcised in heart. It is the TWICE born Jew that is the "Israel of God" and Romans 11:25-28 demands this as it is impossible to make "Israel" in Romans 11:25-26 anything but TWICE BORN JEWS for the following reasons:

1. This "Israel" is reserved in blindness "UNTIL" a future point of time from Paul while the "remnant" and "Gentile" elect are being PRESENTLY saved.

2. The future point from Paul is defined as the precise time when the last Gentile elect "be come in" or "the fullness" of the gentile elect. This "Israel" has its blindness removed at that point.

3. The future point from Paul that accomplishes this removal of "blindness" is the Second advent of Christ out of Zion where he now abides.

4. This "Israel" is presently "the enemy of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" (v. 28a)but in regard to that future descrisption just given in verses 25-27 touching God's purpose of "election, they are beloved for the father's sake."

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

This explanation of Paul is in perfect harmony with Zechariah 12:10-13:1 and Revelation 1:7 among many other scriptures.

 

[kyredneck]

....Circumcision is a type like the passover is a type. The purpose of a type is to convey a truth. The truth of circumcision is not restricted to merely Jews.

Agree

However, simply because all the "seed" of Abraham must be circumcised in heart does not mean that there are not distinctions between PHYSICAL "seed" of Abraham circumcised in heart versus GENTILE "seed" of Abraham circumcised in heart. It is the TWICE born Jew that is the "Israel of God" and Romans 11:25-28 demands this as it is impossible to make "Israel" in Romans 11:25-26 anything but TWICE BORN JEWS for the following reasons:

Let me get this straight; you're saying the 'Israel of God' includes only those with a particular DNA?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Let me get this straight; you're saying the 'Israel of God' includes only those with a particular DNA?

I am saying the "Israel of God" includes only those with TWO sets of DNA - Jewish DNA (first birth) and Divine DNA (second birth) or TWICE BORN Jews.

 

[convicted1]

The thing to remember when you are comparing the OT to the NT, is that God is talking to two different men in each of the testaments. The OT was directed towards the fleshly man, especially in regards to the Law(Ten Commandments). The promise was given to Abraham's seed, but now, the promise is given to the inner man, that part of mankind that God saves.

Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


When we believe from the heart that Jesus is Lord, we then obtain that very same promise that was given to Abraham's seed. We become the "seed of Abraham" when we are born again/born from above. God does not have two promises for two seeds(natural Israel and the Church), but one promise to the one "seed", the believers.

Romans 6
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Just the above passage from Romans 6. When we obey from the heart, we become servents of righteousness. What is made righteous? The soul, the inner man, if you will. Our fleshly body will not be made righteous while we are alive here on earth. It must have a change take place, where the corruption puts on incorruption, the dishonorable is raised in honor, the weak is raised in power, IOW, in the resurrection. God looks at us inwardly, and not outwardly. He looks at our inner man, and if He see Jesus' blood, He sees us as being righteous, not of our own accord, but because of Jesus' righteousness.


Galatians 3
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[kyredneck]

I am saying the "Israel of God" includes only those with TWO sets of DNA - Jewish DNA (first birth) and Divine DNA (second birth) or TWICE BORN Jews.

But an honest, unbiased rendering of Gal 6:15-16 surely comtradicts that:

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.