Is God through with Isreal, based on this?

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16

I suppose this is somehow critical to your theology, you've seemed to have chosen it as a 'hill to die on'; this goes beyond 'a stretch' to try to make this passage apply to 'DNA Israel', you are doing violence to the scriptures by insisting on forcing this interpretation into the passage.

[edit] As I've already pointed out, the very context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches in it's refutation of the judaizers goes against your interpretation.

 

Right, to suddenly declare believing-DNA-Israel as the "Israel of God" would go completely contrary to the tone of the whole epistle. If, however, the Israel of God refers to believers both Jew and Gentile, then it is not only in keeping with the context, but it serves as a fitting climax - a flourish - and is the final validation of his arguments.

 

Romans Ch. 11 excerpts
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. vs.1

Even so then at this present time [Dispensation of Grace - Gentile Bride of Christ] also there is a remnant [Jews that become Christians] according to the election of grace. vs.5

Have they [genetic Israel] stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. vs. 11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. vs. 25 [fullness of Gentiles = completion of the Bride of Christ]

As concerning the gospel, [of Grace] they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are [genetic Israel] beloved for the fathers' sakes. vs. 28

 

Apostle paul seems to saying to us that at this present time, Age of the NT Grace period, that those jews who are 'spiritual" Faithful remnant chosen by God to receive Christ, were "true isrea;" being saved and now part of the body of Christ, in the Church..

Also though, he seems to be saying that there was coming a future time, "end days" "time of Jacobs folly" "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" where God would then deal with national isreal, as ALL jews alive at that time would receive messiah at his return!

 

Yea, it's pretty simple and straight-forward even for newest Christian
that God is not finished with Israel. Matter of fact, it would be hard
for anyone to not notice the looming threat of radical Islam on the
nation of Israel [God's chosen people].

 

Jesus said this to DNA-Israel: "not of blood"; "You are of your father the devil"; "say not to yourselves, we have Abraham to our father"; "you are not Abraham's children"; "if ye were Abraham's children, you would love me"; "destruction is come unto you to the uttermost"; "your house is left unto you desolate"; "he will utterly destroy that nation"; "and that without remedy".

And another thing, how will "all [DNA] Israel" of Romans 11 be saved if gentile believers are raptured off the earth? It says that they might be saved "through your (gentiles) mercy".

 

This is typical of dispensational interpretaion of scripture, to 'suddenly' switch midstream and destroy any underlying continuity of themes that may have been built.

Many years ago, when I WAS a dispensationalist, I bought a 'Second Coming Bible' (wish I still had it), and from the very first, when I opened it, I was amazed at how nearly in every chapter how 'chopped up' and disconnected the passages were, and the gaping holes there were in nearly every chapter in their 'Second Coming Bible'. This book alone, that I bought, probably had as much as anything to do with me beginning to look for answers outside of my dispensational upbringing. The book, like dispensational interpretation, was chop suey.

 

What is interesting to me is that those who do not hold to the Dispy view have to resort many times to spiritualising the text, or go to outside sources than the Bible to "confirm it!"

When did God say that Isreal meant Church now from old to the new for example?

 

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13

Without realizing that the mystery of the Church - the Gentile "Bride of Christ"
- was revealed gradually/progressively to Paul, AND without using Pauline Doctrine as a
foundation it is quite easy to be confused concerning the Church vs. (genetic) Israel.

Most of the scriptures are directed at (genetic) Israel and that includes the Gospels
and the Hebrew Epistles. Without recognizing the supremacy of Pauline Doctrine,
Gentiles become quite easily confused with scripture.

The Holy Spirit did not waste space on 3 Chapters in Romans (Ch. 9, 10 & 11) for no reason.

 

For example, Hos 1:10 or Gal 6:16 or Col 3:3...

[edit add] ...Ro. 2:29; 9:6

[edit add] http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1745299#post1745299

 

:laugh: I actually used to teach my students to concentrate only on the Pauline Epistles because the entire remainder of the Bible was only for Jews (except for what truth could be "gleaned" from it). My Bible was probably smaller than Thomas Jefferson's Bible!

 

You mean like my post above, #87? You do realize that everything I put in quotes in that post comes directly from the Bible, don't you? Do you need the references?

 

Many of us former dispos could give the same exact scenario. I told my prof in my Sermon on the Mount class how dispyism screwed me up, specifically referring to the SotM. He was not surprised.

 

Well DR.W,
I know Paul is speaking of Israel.....but those who were saved in OT Israel are also IN Christ. Gentiles are grafted in...to the same olive tree where the unbelieving branches were broken off.....I submit it is a fulfillment of Isa 49:1-8

Dr.W...you see this portion of vs 8 quoted here;

The quote from Isa.includes the gentiles at cornith...when you follow through through Isa 49-66......we have all the nations comong in droves to the Lord.......the mystery was not that gentiles were coming, it is that they come in as equals IN CHRIST.

 

Did you note the word "also" in verse 6. The same salvation that will save "all Israel" will "also" save all the Gentile elect. Most recognize that the "remnant" in Romans 11 are strictly Jewish elect (Rom. 11:5). All recognize the term "gentiles" in Romans 11:25 refer to the Gentile elect. All recognize what has been placed in blindness in Romans 11:7-10 and broken off in Romans 11:12-24 is Israel as a ethnic nation.

What is not recognized by many is that what is broken off (national Israel) is also what is grafted in "AGAIN" into their "OWN" tree and what remains in blindness "UNTIL" the last gentile elect "be come in" is the same "Israel" who presently is now "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" but touching election will be saved at the second coming for the sake of the "father's" in keeping with the covenant of God with the "father's" PLURAL (not merely Abraham, but Isaac and Jacob" who are the "father's" of THE ETHNIC NATION OF ISRAEL.

You are entitled to your opinion but not to your facts. There is no possible way that "Israel" in Romans 11:25-28 can exegetically be applied to any other entity but NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL at the Second coming of Christ.

 

Dr.W.

I think you are not looking at the Ot passages I offered you. I think if you do not deal with them, you will fail to see what paul means by all Israel.

Of course he is speaking of Ot israel up until this time, because until the cross....salvation was found in that nation......now it is worldwide.

Although Jews can be grafted in again, your point that it is the very same Israelites who are grafted in ????/ they have been dead for 2000 years, so it does not look like it is them.
Dr.W.......your thoughts on Isa.49 please...even Isa 54 while you are looking:thumbs:

 

Paul is not talking about those who are dead but rather Israel as a NATION which continues to exist as God's elect nation from among the nations. That NATION will be saved in its fulness (Rom. 11:12) at the Lord's return (Rom. 11:25-28; with Rev. 1:7 with Zech. 12:10-13:1).

 

Think the basic problem in discussing all of this between the Bible use of isreal/Church, is that we have to differiate between spiritual isreal, those jews that were saved out by God since time of Christ, and national isreal, which will receive the blessings from the Lord at time of Second Coming of Christ...

Right now, saved jews belong to the Church, body of Christ, but at time of return of Christ, all jews alive at that time, national isreal, will becomne saved overnight, thus fulfillijg the OT prophecies grantedto both the Church and isreal!