Is God through with Isreal, based on this?

[kyredneck]

.....Concerning Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

The first "on them" refers to gentile believers, while the "upon the Israel of God" refers to Jewish beleivers, both which are justified without circumcision.

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16

I suppose this is somehow critical to your theology, you've seemed to have chosen it as a 'hill to die on'; this goes beyond 'a stretch' to try to make this passage apply to 'DNA Israel', you are doing violence to the scriptures by insisting on forcing this interpretation into the passage.

[edit] As I've already pointed out, the very context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches in it's refutation of the judaizers goes against your interpretation.

 

[J.D.]

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16

I suppose this is somehow critical to your theology, you've seemed to have chosen it as a 'hill to die on'; this goes beyond 'a stretch' to try to make this passage apply to 'DNA Israel', you are doing violence to the scriptures by insisting on forcing this interpretation into the passage.

[edit] As I've already pointed out, the very context of the epistle to the Galation Churches in it's refutation of the judaizers goes against your interpretation.

Right, to suddenly declare believing-DNA-Israel as the "Israel of God" would go completely contrary to the tone of the whole epistle. If, however, the Israel of God refers to believers both Jew and Gentile, then it is not only in keeping with the context, but it serves as a fitting climax - a flourish - and is the final validation of his arguments.

 

[beameup]

Romans Ch. 11 excerpts
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. vs.1

Even so then at this present time [Dispensation of Grace - Gentile Bride of Christ] also there is a remnant [Jews that become Christians] according to the election of grace. vs.5

Have they [genetic Israel] stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. vs. 11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. vs. 25 [fullness of Gentiles = completion of the Bride of Christ]

As concerning the gospel, [of Grace] they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are [genetic Israel] beloved for the fathers' sakes. vs. 28

 

[JesusFan]

Romans Ch. 1 excerpts
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. vs.1

Even so then at this present time [Dispensation of Grace - Gentile Bride of Christ] also there is a remnant [Jews that become Christians] according to the election of grace. vs.5

Have they [genetic Israel] stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. vs. 11

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. vs. 25 [fullness of Gentiles = completion of the Bride of Christ]

As concerning the gospel, [of Grace] they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are [genetic Israel] beloved for the fathers' sakes. vs. 28

Apostle paul seems to saying to us that at this present time, Age of the NT Grace period, that those jews who are 'spiritual" Faithful remnant chosen by God to receive Christ, were "true isrea;" being saved and now part of the body of Christ, in the Church..

Also though, he seems to be saying that there was coming a future time, "end days" "time of Jacobs folly" "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" where God would then deal with national isreal, as ALL jews alive at that time would receive messiah at his return!

 

[revmwc]

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6:16

I suppose this is somehow critical to your theology, you've seemed to have chosen it as a 'hill to die on'; this goes beyond 'a stretch' to try to make this passage apply to 'DNA Israel', you are doing violence to the scriptures by insisting on forcing this interpretation into the passage.

[edit] As I've already pointed out, the very context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches in it's refutation of the judaizers goes against your interpretation.

We in this current age are a new creature, not a replacement of the true DNA seed of Israel, nowhere does Paul imply that here. What he is saying is that "as many as walk according to this rule" what rule? verse 14 and 15, "14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature." First that we walk in the Glory of the Cross of Christ, walk as crucified to the world and walk as new creatures.
When we do that we receive "peace and mercy" and as upon the called out ones of God. Just as Israel the (prince of God) was called out to be the father of the 12 tribes of the nation Israel. So are we called out from amoung the nations but no where does Paul say nor imply that the church replaced Israel as God's called out nation. We are Ambassadors of Christ and the Kingdom of God, never are we seen as the Ambasadors of the Kingdom of Israel which will see Davids son Jesus reigning over. Nor does this imply that the the seed of Isareal the true DNA seed would cease from being a nation. The ordinances of the sun, moon and stars has not ceased and therefore neither has Israel as God's chosen people.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.

If you have been able to measure heaven above and search the foundations of the earth corners and the ordinances of the Sun, Moon and Stars have passed away then DNA Israel will not be restored as a nation. But since that hasn't happened then Israel will be a nation again and Jesus the True Messiah will reign in Physical Zion on the Physical throne of David.

 

[beameup]

Apostle paul seems to saying to us that at this present time, Age of the NT Grace period, that those jews who are 'spiritual" Faithful remnant chosen by God to receive Christ, were "true isrea;" being saved and now part of the body of Christ, in the Church..

Also though, he seems to be saying that there was coming a future time, "end days" "time of Jacobs folly" "Great and Terrible Day of the Lord" where God would then deal with national isreal, as ALL jews alive at that time would receive messiah at his return!

Yea, it's pretty simple and straight-forward even for newest Christian
that God is not finished with Israel. Matter of fact, it would be hard
for anyone to not notice the looming threat of radical Islam on the
nation of Israel [God's chosen people].

 

[J.D.]

Jesus said this to DNA-Israel: "not of blood"; "You are of your father the devil"; "say not to yourselves, we have Abraham to our father"; "you are not Abraham's children"; "if ye were Abraham's children, you would love me"; "destruction is come unto you to the uttermost"; "your house is left unto you desolate"; "he will utterly destroy that nation"; "and that without remedy".

And another thing, how will "all [DNA] Israel" of Romans 11 be saved if gentile believers are raptured off the earth? It says that they might be saved "through your (gentiles) mercy".

 

[kyredneck]

Right, to suddenly declare believing-DNA-Israel as the "Israel of God" would go completely contrary to the tone of the whole epistle.

This is typical of dispensational interpretaion of scripture, to 'suddenly' switch midstream and destroy any underlying continuity of themes that may have been built.

Many years ago, when I WAS a dispensationalist, I bought a 'Second Coming Bible' (wish I still had it), and from the very first, when I opened it, I was amazed at how nearly in every chapter how 'chopped up' and disconnected the passages were, and the gaping holes there were in nearly every chapter in their 'Second Coming Bible'. This book alone, that I bought, probably had as much as anything to do with me beginning to look for answers outside of my dispensational upbringing. The book, like dispensational interpretation, was chop suey.

 

[JesusFan]

This is typical of dispensational interpretaion of scripture, to 'suddenly' switch midstream and destroy any underlying continuity of themes that may have been built.

Many years ago, when I WAS a dispensationalist, I bought a 'Second Coming Bible' (wish I still had it), and from the very first, when I opened it, I was amazed at how nearly in every chapter how 'chopped up' and disconnected the passages were, and the gaping holes there were in nearly every chapter in their 'Second Coming Bible'. This book alone, that I bought, probably had as much as anything to do with me beginning to look for answers outside of my dispensational upbringing. The book, like dispensational interpretation, was chop suey.

What is interesting to me is that those who do not hold to the Dispy view have to resort many times to spiritualising the text, or go to outside sources than the Bible to "confirm it!"

When did God say that Isreal meant Church now from old to the new for example?

 

[beameup]

For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: - Romans 11:13

Without realizing that the mystery of the Church - the Gentile "Bride of Christ"
- was revealed gradually/progressively to Paul, AND without using Pauline Doctrine as a
foundation it is quite easy to be confused concerning the Church vs. (genetic) Israel.

Most of the scriptures are directed at (genetic) Israel and that includes the Gospels
and the Hebrew Epistles. Without recognizing the supremacy of Pauline Doctrine,
Gentiles become quite easily confused with scripture.

The Holy Spirit did not waste space on 3 Chapters in Romans (Ch. 9, 10 & 11) for no reason.

 

[kyredneck]

....When did God say that Isreal meant Church now from old to the new for example?

For example, Hos 1:10 or Gal 6:16 or Col 3:3...

[edit add] ...Ro. 2:29; 9:6

[edit add] http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1745299#post1745299

 

[J.D.]

This is typical of dispensational interpretaion of scripture, to 'suddenly' switch midstream and destroy any underlying continuity of themes that may have been built.

Many years ago, when I WAS a dispensationalist, I bought a 'Second Coming Bible' (wish I still had it), and from the very first, when I opened it, I was amazed at how nearly in every chapter how 'chopped up' and disconnected the passages were, and the gaping holes there were in nearly every chapter in their 'Second Coming Bible'. This book alone, that I bought, probably had as much as anything to do with me beginning to look for answers outside of my dispensational upbringing. The book, like dispensational interpretation, was chop suey.

:laugh: I actually used to teach my students to concentrate only on the Pauline Epistles because the entire remainder of the Bible was only for Jews (except for what truth could be "gleaned" from it). My Bible was probably smaller than Thomas Jefferson's Bible!

 

[J.D.]

What is interesting to me is that those who do not hold to the Dispy view have to resort many times to spiritualising the text, or go to outside sources than the Bible to "confirm it!"

When did God say that Isreal meant Church now from old to the new for example?

You mean like my post above, #87? You do realize that everything I put in quotes in that post comes directly from the Bible, don't you? Do you need the references?

 

[Greektim]

:laugh: I actually used to teach my students to concentrate only on the Pauline Epistles because the entire remainder of the Bible was only for Jews (except for what truth could be "gleaned" from it). My Bible was probably smaller than Thomas Jefferson's Bible!

Many of us former dispos could give the same exact scenario. I told my prof in my Sermon on the Mount class how dispyism screwed me up, specifically referring to the SotM. He was not surprised.

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 11:25-28, indeed the entire context, makes your interpretation impossible as the term "Israel" in verse 25 cannot include ANY gentiles whatsoever. Romans 9-11 is the more comprehensive teaching of Paul on this subject and one solitary text in Galations cannot be used to overthrow it.

Well DR.W,
I know Paul is speaking of Israel.....but those who were saved in OT Israel are also IN Christ. Gentiles are grafted in...to the same olive tree where the unbelieving branches were broken off.....I submit it is a fulfillment of Isa 49:1-8

Isaiah 49

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.

10They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

11And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.

12Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.

13Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

14But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me.

15Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

16Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

17Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.

18Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.

19For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.

20The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.

21Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?

22Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.

23And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

24Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?

25But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.

26And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Dr.W...you see this portion of vs 8 quoted here;

2 Corinthians 6

1We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

2(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

The quote from Isa.includes the gentiles at cornith...when you follow through through Isa 49-66......we have all the nations comong in droves to the Lord.......the mystery was not that gentiles were coming, it is that they come in as equals IN CHRIST.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Well DR.W,
I know Paul is speaking of Israel.....but those who were saved in OT Israel are also IN Christ. Gentiles are grafted in...to the same olive tree where the unbelieving branches were broken off.....I submit it is a fulfillment of Isa 49:1-8


Dr.W...you see this portion of vs 8 quoted here;


The quote from Isa.includes the gentiles at cornith...when you follow through through Isa 49-66......we have all the nations comong in droves to the Lord.......the mystery was not that gentiles were coming, it is that they come in as equals IN CHRIST.

Did you note the word "also" in verse 6. The same salvation that will save "all Israel" will "also" save all the Gentile elect. Most recognize that the "remnant" in Romans 11 are strictly Jewish elect (Rom. 11:5). All recognize the term "gentiles" in Romans 11:25 refer to the Gentile elect. All recognize what has been placed in blindness in Romans 11:7-10 and broken off in Romans 11:12-24 is Israel as a ethnic nation.

What is not recognized by many is that what is broken off (national Israel) is also what is grafted in "AGAIN" into their "OWN" tree and what remains in blindness "UNTIL" the last gentile elect "be come in" is the same "Israel" who presently is now "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" but touching election will be saved at the second coming for the sake of the "father's" in keeping with the covenant of God with the "father's" PLURAL (not merely Abraham, but Isaac and Jacob" who are the "father's" of THE ETHNIC NATION OF ISRAEL.

You are entitled to your opinion but not to your facts. There is no possible way that "Israel" in Romans 11:25-28 can exegetically be applied to any other entity but NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL at the Second coming of Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Did you note the word "also" in verse 6. The same salvation that will save "all Israel" will "also" save all the Gentile elect. Most recognize that the "remnant" in Romans 11 are strictly Jewish elect (Rom. 11:5). All recognize the term "gentiles" in Romans 11:25 refer to the Gentile elect. All recognize what has been placed in blindness in Romans 11:7-10 and broken off in Romans 11:12-24 is Israel as a ethnic nation.

What is not recognized by many is that what is broken off (national Israel) is also what is grafted in "AGAIN" into their "OWN" tree and what remains in blindness "UNTIL" the last gentile elect "be come in" is the same "Israel" who presently is now "enemies of the gospel FOR YOUR SAKES" but touching election will be saved at the second coming for the sake of the "father's" in keeping with the covenant of God with the "father's" PLURAL (not merely Abraham, but Isaac and Jacob" who are the "father's" of THE ETHNIC NATION OF ISRAEL.

You are entitled to your opinion but not to your facts. There is no possible way that "Israel" in Romans 11:25-28 can exegetically be applied to any other entity but NATIONAL ETHNIC ISRAEL at the Second coming of Christ.

Dr.W.

I think you are not looking at the Ot passages I offered you. I think if you do not deal with them, you will fail to see what paul means by all Israel.

Of course he is speaking of Ot israel up until this time, because until the cross....salvation was found in that nation......now it is worldwide.

Although Jews can be grafted in again, your point that it is the very same Israelites who are grafted in ????/ they have been dead for 2000 years, so it does not look like it is them.
Dr.W.......your thoughts on Isa.49 please...even Isa 54 while you are looking:thumbs:

 

[Dr. Walter]

Dr.W.

Although Jews can be grafted in again, your point that it is the very same Israelites who are grafted in ????/ they have been dead for 2000 years, so it does not look like it is them.
Dr.W.......your thoughts on Isa.49 please...even Isa 54 while you are looking:thumbs:

Paul is not talking about those who are dead but rather Israel as a NATION which continues to exist as God's elect nation from among the nations. That NATION will be saved in its fulness (Rom. 11:12) at the Lord's return (Rom. 11:25-28; with Rev. 1:7 with Zech. 12:10-13:1).

 

[JesusFan]

Paul is not talking about those who are dead but rather Israel as a NATION which continues to exist as God's elect nation from among the nations. That NATION will be saved in its fulness (Rom. 11:12) at the Lord's return (Rom. 11:25-28; with Rev. 1:7 with Zech. 12:10-13:1).

Think the basic problem in discussing all of this between the Bible use of isreal/Church, is that we have to differiate between spiritual isreal, those jews that were saved out by God since time of Christ, and national isreal, which will receive the blessings from the Lord at time of Second Coming of Christ...

Right now, saved jews belong to the Church, body of Christ, but at time of return of Christ, all jews alive at that time, national isreal, will becomne saved overnight, thus fulfillijg the OT prophecies grantedto both the Church and isreal!