Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

[AVL1984]

I've always been taught that "their worm" referred to the sinful desire that the person had during their lifetime. This desire will never be quenched. If it is for alcohol, it will never be quenched and the person will agonize for eternity over it. The same goes for homosexuality, adultery, murder, robbery, etc. It is a somewhat simple, yet logical explanation, though I myself have never really studied as to whether it will be or not. But, it would be a good subject for study. I thank James for bringing it up.

AVL1984

 

[robycop3]

I'm wondering why it can't simply be some kinda literal worm? Herod was smitten with literal worms while he was a living mortal man. Why can't immortal sinners have immortal worms?

BTW, AVL, I'm not trying to be smart-aleck...I just take Scripture literally as possible, not trying to read anything into it that's not WRITTEN into it. That's why I know KJVO's a false doctrine...not found nor indicated in Scripture.

 

[James_Newman]

I agree robycop. We should take scripture literaly whenever possible. I do not hesitate to agree that there may be literal worms in hell. But I think calling my interpretation poppycock? If you are going to take scripture literaly, then according to scripture, man literaly is a worm. Jacob was called a worm, as well.

Originally posted by robycop3:

You're adding a meaning to Scripture that isn't there. This is adding to Scripture same as adding words is. Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?

No, they're not. Hades is cast into gehenna; JESUS HIMSELF showed that to John.

No confusion on MY part...it's YOU who's trying to make something else out of JESUS' words besides what He actually said.

What did he actually say? He said death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. There is still nothing but hot air proving that gehenna is the lake of fire. Are you sure you are not adding a meaning that isn't there? I think you should pray about it as well, brother, and ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth. The bible (kjv anyway) says study to show yourself approved. What would be the difference between what I'm saying and what your saying?

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:What did he actually say? He said death and hell(hades) were cast into the lake of fire. There is still nothing but hot air proving that gehenna is the lake of fire.

Isn't there? Those in hades(wicked) are mentioned as coming to the Great White Throne judgment. Nowhere is there any mention of anyone ever coming out of either gehenna or the LOF.

John saw HADES cast into the LOF, presumably because its purpose had been served & it will then be empty. Jesus made a distinction not found in the OT...He called the temporary abode of the wicked "hades" but He called the temporary abode of the righteous "paradise". We don't read of paradise being cast into the LOF.

John first wrote about "a lake of fire burning with brimstone" in Rev. 19:20. John laconically wrote what he WAS SHOWN, and didn't use symbolism of his own. He saw a lake of fire, so that's what he wrote. He didn't give it a name because he hadn't been told any name for it by Jesus as He showed it to John. But we DO know it's the final abode of the wicked, called(not NAMED) the 'second death' by JESUS. And Jesus said it's better to enter into heaven maimed than to enter into gehenna whole. Clearly He's telling us there's no leaving gehenna.

Therefore, there's every case for gehenna & the LOF to be one & the same.


Are you sure you are not adding a meaning that isn't there? I think you should pray about it as well, brother, and ask the Holy Spirit to show you the truth.

The Holy Spirit expects us to use what He's given us for more than a hat rack. Anyone can see ot's JESUS who's making the distinctions between hades, paradise, and gehenna. And Jesus was using an illustration of the burning garbage dump near Jerusalem, which was clearly no vacation resort. No, I'm not adding something that isn't there. Jesus said both hades and gehenna, clearly showing each to be a distinct, separate place, and since He showed John that hades(not gehenna) will be cast into the LOF, then clearly the LOG and gehenna are the same thing. How many "hells" does He need, anyway?


The bible (kjv anyway) says study to show yourself approved. What would be the difference between what I'm saying and what your saying?

You're saying hades & gehenna are the same place, while JESUS clearly shows they're NOT.

One might ask, "Why does this matter, as we CHRISTIANS aren't going to hell anyway?" It's a matter of TRUTH. I believe in being absitively, posolutely TRUTHFUL in witnessing, and I do NOT want to stray one word from Scripture in answering any questions about heaven or hell. I don't believe in using scare tactics to try to PUSH anyone to Jesus...I wanna STEER(Not force, coerce, or trick) people to Him with the TRUTH. I believe that's how JESUS worked...catching more "flies" with "honey" than with "vinegar".

 

[James_Newman]

Jesus never said anyone comes out of China, so China must be the lake of fire too. You can't argue with a bunch of negatives to prove a positive. You say it is a matter of truth. Tell me the truth brother. How does an unsaved man get born again? And once he is saved, what is he promised? I believe that an unsaved man gets born again by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

For believing on Jesus Christ, I believe they receive the free gift of salvation, and will be raised up on the last day.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So how does this fit into the equation:

Mark 9
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Was Jesus trying to 'trick' people by confusing them about how they get saved? Not at all. He was speaking to people who already believed in him, people who will be raised up on the last day, regardless. Just as we see in Revelation, death and hell give up the dead, and everyone not found written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. There will be people in hell that are written in the book of life, brother.

He isn't telling John how to get saved. He is talking about how a saved person enters into the Kingdom of God (verse 47), the thousand year reign, before the final judgment where the unsaved are cast into the lake of fire. Thats why there is a judgment seat of Christ. We are going to stand before Him and give account of our works, and we are told that he will either say to us 'well done thou good and faithful servant' or he will say 'verily I say unto you, I know you not'.

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:There will be people in hell that are written in the book of life, brother.

ONLY in your own mind, if you believe paradise is part of "hell". In that case, you're relying upon a poor rendering in the KJV, I.E. "hell" for all specific places after death, except heaven.

In almost ALL the Scriptures you posted, the GREEK, rendered "hell" is GEHENNA.

 

[James_Newman]

Yes, and none of them are referring to the lake of fire. You saw the rich man in fire in hades. So tell me, is salvation a free gift? Or do we have to overcome sin to be saved?

 

[James_Newman]

Notice WHY the rich man was in torment in hades. It was because he failed to have mercy on Lazarus. He is told that he recieved his reward in this life, and Lazarus was recieving his in the next. We aren't told that the rich man failed to get saved, while lazarus believed in Christ and was comforted for it. He did fail to believe something, fail to believe that he would be judged for his works. Everyone is going to be judged for their works, but those who are saved will be raised up on the last day, freely by the grace of God and not of works, lest any man should boast. The LAST DAY is plainly AFTER the thousand years.

 

[Plain ol' Ralph]

No, roby, you accept the limited definitions of the Greek words in the attempt to negate the KJB; in also the form of "anti-KJVO"ism as your methodology.

I have found the KJB to be exact and correct in the tense of the verbage used in the Greek and is rightly translated. You're just another victim of the "corrupt Greek" scholars with their limitations espoused upon the language.

Your last PARAGRAPH trying to justify your rants and ravings is TOTALLY suspect of being prersumptuous and even to the point of being arrogant and boastful.

If the "issue" comes up, I assure you and them, I am satisfied with the KJB to the point of not wasting precious time with any other so-called "version"

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Please gentlemen. This thread is staying open because it has been on topic. Don't force its closure by resorting to personal attacks.

 

[robycop3]

Thank you, C4K. I think we all know it's inevitable that the KJVO, when cornered by the FACTS, resorts to ad-hominem. ralph, you van be satisfied with the KJV as a matter of personal preference, but you fail as usual to give me a legitimate reason why "I" should be KJVO.

MEANWHILE, BACK AT THE RANCH...

You're incorrect, Ralph...it's YOU who accepts a limited definition of the Greek words. Hades, tartarus, and gehenna (LOF) are all separate places. You may choose to simply call them all hell, same as you may choose to simply call the Taurus, Focus, and F-150 all Fords. The KJV does NOT have the best renderings of those words because it fails to differentiate among them.

Twice that I can recall, a new Christian, reading the KJV for the first time asked me, "How can hell be cast into itself?"


James, you ignored what I pointed out what the Scriptures say. JESUS...not any ordinary man...said, "gehenna". He was giving an illustration to the audience in the "Sermon on the Mount". He also used many other illustrations in that sermon, as He was preaching to a crowd consisting mostly of people who'd never heard of Him before, and who didn't know the then-existing Scriptures that well. And you're wandering off the subject by speaking of salvation. Scripture plainly says the wicked dead go to hades and then are resurrected in the SECOND resurrection to face judgment, then are cast into the LOF, which is the gehenna of Jesus' illustration. Hades is NOT gehenna...the lake of fire is. John saw hades cast into the LOF. We have no idea what it looked like, but JESUS caused John to know what it was, same as He caused him to know what death looked like.

 

[James_Newman]

Who was his audience at the sermon on the mount? A crowd of people who didn't know him?

Matthew 5
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

As for wandering off the subject, salvation is very much on the subject. Your view that gehenna is the lake of fire casts a big shadowy doubt on free grace, because of the fact that He IS talking to His disciples here, when He warns them of gehenna. If there was a chance that His disciples were going to the lake of fire, what chance do I have?

[ September 27, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: James Newman ]

 

[robycop3]

James, you're singing off key again...you've missed who all is included in "them". Please read the entire sermon on the mount, from Matt.5 through 7. Please note the 2 last verses of Matt.7, to-wit:

Matt.7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

He was warning EVERYONE WHO WAS THERE, not just His disciples. And remember, He used many illustrations to His disciples alone, as well as using them to a general audience. And Jesus knew that everyone in the crowd knew what the earthly gehenna was...the FINAL REPOSITORY for Jerusalem's garbage.

And it was JESUS who gave man all those words for the places of punishment. How else would Peter have known of tartarus if JESUS hadn't told him?

Gehenna & the LOF are one and the same.

 

[James_Newman]

Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

 

[Trotter]

How much plainer can Roby get, James? He has laid it out much clearer than I would have troubled myself to try and show you...and you still pull up and balk.

The Sermon on the Mount was just that...a sermon given to the people, not a pep talk for His inner circle. The truths that Jesus explained not only show a Christian how to live, but they also show a non-believer that he cannot do it alone.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Trotter]

Here where I live, if I say that I am going to the dump, or I am going to the landfill, EVERYONE knows exactly where I am talkig about.

The Valley of Hinnom is just outside of Jerusalem. The waste and garbage of the city was flung down into the valley, where fires burned day and night to consume it all. The people that Jesus spoke to had but to look over their shoulder to see the smoke rising from the garbage fires that burned there. All in all, it gave them a very graphic word picture.

Is Gehenna the lake of fire? At least symbolically, yes. Literally? I dunno. But Hades and Gehenna are definately two different places.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[James_Newman]

Sorry trotter, I don't mean to press, but he hasn't proven anything. He claims the jews understood perfectly that Gehenna was the final resting place of the damned, but I think this is false as well. That is exactly NOT what Jews today believe of gehenna, if they understood it to be that then, I would love to see some documentation.

Other than his assertion that Jesus used gehenna because the jews recognized gehenna to be the FINAL resting place of garbage, I have not seen any evidence that proves gehenna is the lake of fire. Why did the KJV translators feel comforable translating it as hell? Why did the NIV translators translate it as hell? Because it IS hell. Can you show that the Jews believed gehenna to be the final resting place of the dead? What DID they believe about gehenna?

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Trotter:
Here where I live, if I say that I am going to the dump, or I am going to the landfill, EVERYONE knows exactly where I am talkig about.

The Valley of Hinnom is just outside of Jerusalem. The waste and garbage of the city was flung down into the valley, where fires burned day and night to consume it all. The people that Jesus spoke to had but to look over their shoulder to see the smoke rising from the garbage fires that burned there. All in all, it gave them a very graphic word picture.

Is Gehenna the lake of fire? At least symbolically, yes. Literally? I dunno. But Hades and Gehenna are definately two different places.

In Christ,
Trotter

And back then, if you said you were going to hades, or you were going to gehenna, the jews knew you were going to sheol.

 

[Trotter]

'Gehenna' was used as a word picture, James. Is that not obvious to even you?

When Jesus spoke about it being better to blinded or maimed than to have the entire body cast into Gehenna, the people knew exactly what He spoke of. And when Jesus enlarged that illustration by adding "everlasting fire" in Matthew 18:8-9, along with His references to "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44), He left no doubt that He was speaking of a more permanent place than just the burning garbage heaps outside the city walls.

Do you still think that Hades and Gehenna are the same place, James? Do you still think that hell equals the lake of fire? How do you get there from here? I just do not see where you get your line of reasoning at all.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Ziggy]

Given this topic of Hades/Hell/Gehenna, I find it interesting that the Googlized display ad at the top of my page had this:

The Circumcision Center
Adult circumcisions and revisions
For outpatient cosmetic procedures.

Sorry....I couldn't resist.