Is Hell the same as the Lake of Fire?

[robycop3]

James Newman:Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

James, I didn't say they UNDERSTOOD Jesus' illustration. For all WE know, those jews coulda believed they went to that garbage dump if they died in sin. Jesus used MANY illustrations that most people didn't understand. Some, He explained, some He didn't. For example, Nicodemus didn't know what Jesus meant by "born again" until Jesus told him. What I'm saying is that JESUS used the name gehenna when He was telling the people about the LOF. Most likely, some understood while others didn't.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by Trotter:
'Gehenna' was used as a word picture, James. Is that not obvious to even you?

When Jesus spoke about it being better to blinded or maimed than to have the entire body cast into Gehenna, the people knew exactly what He spoke of. And when Jesus enlarged that illustration by adding "everlasting fire" in Matthew 18:8-9, along with His references to "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44), He left no doubt that He was speaking of a more permanent place than just the burning garbage heaps outside the city walls.

Do you still think that Hades and Gehenna are the same place, James? Do you still think that hell equals the lake of fire? How do you get there from here? I just do not see where you get your line of reasoning at all.

In Christ,
Trotter

I never said that hell was the lake of fire, trotter. Thats exactly the opposite of what I'm saying. I'm saying that gehenna and hades are both the underworld, but the lake of fire is separate from either. Whether or not hell and gehenna are in any way distinct is really a side issue. I don't think theres really any discernable difference in the two, other than the name. That the lake of fire is gehenna is nothing but an assumption. If gehenna paints a picture, it is the picture of the rich man in hades.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
James Newman:Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

James, I didn't say they UNDERSTOOD Jesus' illustration. For all WE know, those jews coulda believed they went to that garbage dump if they died in sin. Jesus used MANY illustrations that most people didn't understand. Some, He explained, some He didn't. For example, Nicodemus didn't know what Jesus meant by "born again" until Jesus told him. What I'm saying is that JESUS used the name gehenna when He was telling the people about the LOF. Most likely, some understood while others didn't.

Are you sure the Jews didn't already use gehenna to refer to the afterlife? If this was the case, then surely Jesus would have used gehenna in the same sense that the jews normally understood it. Yes it is derived from the valley of Hinnom, but that doesn't mean thats what the jews thought Jesus was talking about.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Originally posted by robycop3:
He was warning EVERYONE WHO WAS THERE, not just His disciples. And remember, He used many illustrations to His disciples alone, as well as using them to a general audience. And Jesus knew that everyone in the crowd knew what the earthly gehenna was...the FINAL REPOSITORY for Jerusalem's garbage.
Gehenna & the LOF are one and the same.

He was talking to everyone there and telling them that if they didn't "cut off their hand, or foot or pluck out their eye, etc." they would burn in the Lake of Fire? Is that how we get saved?

Either Jesus was teaching non-believers to have good fruit and eliminate bad fruit (WORKS) to be saved, or he was teaching believers (He taught them . . .his disciples) to be obedient servants or else be chastened. There is not another choice. (Short of loss of eternal salvation?!)

And the warning is Hell for whomever it is addressed to. If Gehenna is the LOF, then it is a salvation issue.

Lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Look at it honestly. I only see three possibilities. (Feel free to show me a 4th)

1) Jesus is speaking to unbelievers (whether disciples or not) telling them how to get saved. (WORKS ALERT!) [sarcasm](Someone print up the tracts please before we all cut off our hands so we can start soulwinning all over again with our "Biblical" gospel message.)[/sarcasm]

2) Jesus was speaking to saved disciples warning them that (If this verse speaks of the LOF) they could lose salvation. (WORKS ALERT!!!)

3) Jesus was speaking to saved disciples warning them that (If this speaks of Hell, like my Bible says), they are in danger of temporary banishment in the underworld and exclusion from the 1000 year kingdom. (No works for salvation here. Salvation is already established and irrevocable, yet we are still subject to chastening.)

Now read the verses and decide.

Lacy

Mark 9
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

 

[robycop3]

Actually, Lacy, let's go to the first verses of Matt.5... 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, sayingThe Beatitudes)

Now, did "them" include only His disciples? Let's go to the end of the "Sermon on the Mount" in Matt.7...28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Clearly, He was speaking to the croed, and not just His disciples. many understood and heeded His messages, while others did not. We don't know how many understood His gehenna illustration and how many didn't. But nowhere in Scripture is there any indication that the place Jesus symbolized by the name gehenna is anything but the LOF. Remember, Jesus used the words gehenna and hades separately. As for John and revelation, John wrote what he saw, describing it as best he could with his 1st century understanding. Some things, jesus caused him to understand; otherwise he wouldn't know it was death and hades cast into the LOF. But he had no problem recognizing "A" lake of fire when he saw it. Later, he called it, "THE" LOF.

Once someone is mentioned as going into gehenna, there's no further mention of whoever it was. This is also true of the LOF. But hades gave up the dead within it.

Gehenna is the LOF;the LOF is gehenna.

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by robycop3:
Actually, Lacy, let's go to the first verses of Matt.5... 1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, sayingThe Beatitudes)

Now, did "them" include only His disciples? Let's go to the end of the "Sermon on the Mount" in Matt.7...28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

He taught 'them' is the disciples. I have never heard of having to go 2 chapters further into a book to find the antecedent of a pronoun. The people probably were astonished, but the teaching was to the disciples. These teachings are to you and me as well. You didn't answer Lacy, do we lose our salvation if we do not heed these warnings? Or is this how we get saved? I don't want to go to the lake of fire...

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:He taught 'them' is the disciples.

Yes, the disciples were present, as Scripture says. But they were not part of the crowd.


I have never heard of having to go 2 chapters further into a book to find the antecedent of a pronoun.

In that case, you haven't read your KJV very well. Please read from Matthew 5 through Matthew 7 and see if it's not all the same body of words spoken by JESUS from the mount. Therefore your above statements are only opinion based upon guesswork.


The people probably were astonished, but the teaching was to the disciples.

That's only PART of that the Scriptures say. The crowd is also included. Any other interpretation of those Scriptures is downright silly.


These teachings are to you and me as well.

I agree...and they say 'gehenna' to US as well as His actual audience.


You didn't answer Lacy, do we lose our salvation if we do not heed these warnings?

With all due respect to Lacy and you, this is NOT the subject of what YOU first asked, and what we've been discussing. Now, I say gehenna and the LOF are one & the same and you say they aren't. I have made some case for my belief with fact from SCRIPTURE, while you have provided only opinion and guesswork.


Or is this how we get saved? I don't want to go to the lake of fire...

Shoot, not even the devil wants to go there...but he knows it's gonna be his final abode some day...and since misery loves company, he wants to take as many people with him to gehenna as he can.

 

[DeaconLew]

Clearly the "them" are the disciples. Otherwise we have no way to understand the english language.

Since a disciple is one who is saved and following Jesus, anyone that is saved and following the Saviour's teaching is thus a disciple.

The Lord has told me, through his word, that if I am to gain an entrance into the 1000 year kingdom (notice this is not eternity) then I must be meek, pray for those that dispitefully use me, remove my mote before pulling out your beam, etc. However to miss the lake of fire I must be saved (Rev 20:15, John 3:36). I know this to be the case because the beast, the false prophet and the devil all end up there as well as every unbeliever.

What did the Lord warn me (a disciple) about? Hell. Matthew 10 the Lord is giving a soul winners conference. He told me, among other things, to not be afraid of man; all man can do is kill my body. I should fear the Lord that cast both soul and body in hell. You know, that is what John was talking about over in 1John 4:18. If you have that perfect love you will not be afraid to tell an ol' rotten stinkin' sinner that judgment is coming! No, no you will have no problem at all letting an ol' drunkard know that his ballin' and squallin' days are coming! Neither will you have any fear to tell the pios, tithe payers of your church that are saved by grace that there is hell to pay for not living holy.

My friends, our Lord warned us of hell, not the lake of fire. There is hell to pay if you miss the Kingdom of God.

-DeaconLew

 

[AVL1984]

Originally posted by DeaconLew:

Since a disciple is one who is saved and following Jesus, anyone that is saved and following the Saviour's teaching is thus a disciple.

-DeaconLew

Deacon, one can be a disciple and not be saved. There are many who follow the teachings of Christ who do not know him, and I believe the Bible makes this quite clear when he talks them coming to him saying "Lord, Lord" and then telling them all the things they have done in his name. He's going to tell them he never knew them.

AVL1984

 

[DeaconLew]

It is not possible accourding to the scripture to be a disciple and not be saved. The verses that you are referencing are to believers (folks that are saved). Benny Hin may be saved, but his "healing people" will not cover any unrighteousness. Neither will it cover yours or mine! We have to be faithful to the end. Or there is a price that will be paid at the Judgment Seat of Christ.

-DeaconLew

 

[AVL1984]

I disagree, Deacon. There are many people today who follow Christs teachings but are no more saved than a telephone book.

AVL1984

 

[DeaconLew]

Then they are not scripturally or practically following his teachings. The very first thing he said to do was get saved. If they are not saved they are not following him. -DeaconLew

 

[AVL1984]

Not necessarily, deacon. All they have to do to be a disciple is be a follower of his teachings. Many who follow him without being saved are more "Christian" in action than many Christians, yet their discipleship will not save them from hell.

AVL1984

 

[DeaconLew]

Originally posted by DeaconLew:
Then they are not scripturally or practically following his teachings. The very first thing he said to do was get saved. If they are not saved they are not following him. -DeaconLew

Hmmm. Reread what I posted. The first thing Jesus said to follow him in was salvation (John 3). Not saved, not a disciple.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

We are already on page seven and this thread has deviated from the OP. Let's return to the topic or we will need to shut this one down.

 

[Lacy Evans]

C4K

Could you please suffer further discussion on who was addressed in Mark 9. (Christians or everyone.) This is important to the subject of whether the danger is Hell or the LOF. The way I see it, If the danger is Hell, then Millenial Exclusionists are correct. If the Danger is the LOF, then those who teach conditional security are correct.

To properly discus Mark 9 we have to address the issue of salvation and works. It is a multi-faceted subjuct with far-reaching implications.

Respectfully, Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

I'm still looking for a smoking gun. I havent seen any thing that would hold up in court. The biggest argument seems to be that this interpretation that gehenna is the lake of fire fits in nicely with the works salvation that many of the so-called fundamentalists on this board are preaching. The error that a true Christian will always persevere, or will never continue in sin, or however you want to put it has tainted your perception in every area of doctrine. When you see a warning directed to a Christian, you read 'false professor'. How do you know your not a false professor?

Adulterers will not inherit the kingdom of god, they will be cast into hell. Jesus said if you look at a woman to lust, you have committed adultery. All you men who KNOW your saved because of your works should make sure you KNOW your not sinning. I KNOW I will be raised up on the last day, because I have a promise from God. It is conditioned upon my believing. I DO NOT know that I will be in the kingdom reigning with Christ, because that promise is conditioned on OVERCOMING. I will never be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity. But I could very well spend the 1000 yrs in hell if I choose to live for myself in this life, rather than obey Christ and live for the reward in the next life.

Salvation from the lake of fire is a free gift, which was payed for by the blood of Jesus Christ. We do not cut off our hands to be saved, we do not pluck out our eyes to be saved. I would be interested to hear what kind of 'gospel' you present to unbelievers. For some reason I imagine it goes something like this:

"Hey man, you know Jesus?"
"No, whats Jesus?"
"Jesus is the saviour, the Son of God. He died for your sins, do you believe that?"
"Sure do, am I saved now?"
"Maybe. All you have to do now is read this big book and do everything it says. Start with getting baptized, and work your way up until your as holy as I am, because I know I'm saved. If your not as holy as me, you might not really be a Christian. Make sure you keep your hands clean and don't look at anything bad, because then you have to start cutting parts off. Why don't you come to my church and compare your holiness with some real Christians sometime, that way you can be sure if you really believed or not."

 

[DeaconLew]

If not committing adultery proves I am saved then I am not. (I am no longer an adulterer as of 9 years ago). If not getting drunk proves I am saved then I am not (same as above). If 1Cor6 is right no one is saved... theft (what about your credit card debt??). Either we were warned of punishment after salvation for unholiness or salvation is by works.

-DeaconLew

 

[robycop3]

James Newman:Did they all understand that of gehenna? Can you show some historical documentation of what the Jews understood gehenna to be?

James, not even Jesus' disciples understood ALL His illustrations at the time. The only way WE understand them is through HINDSIGHT.

But we need to stay with what Jesus SAID, and not how His audience understood it. He said, "Gehenna". What gives anyone the idea that gehenna is anything but the LOF? God doesn't have a shuttling system for the wicked dead. They go to hades, face judgment, then are cast into the LOF...gehenna. This is Scriptural.